who’d want to live there? there’s no ponies

Wow. that was a mature response. Not.

The commenter pretty muchs sums it up for me, though. I would never vote for Nader because I do believe he’s an insane egomaniac. However, that negates none of the truth of what the commenter wrote. The Dems have licked Bush’s ass for seven years, enabling him almost every step of the way. They are simply one arm of the Corporate Government, put out there so that we Libs can pretend we have someone on “our” side. Please. Fuck them.

The fuck of it is, the commenter’s basically right. But I’ve learned that being right is not always good enough, and doing the wrong thing for the right reason (”taking a stand on principle”) is really only morally satisfying if it doesn’t mean the difference between life and death for people who had no choices at all. You’re not just voting for you–you’re voting for all the folks McCain may end up getting killed. It’s worth asking yourself if they’d prefer you be a bit pragmatic or if they’re delighted you’re sticking by your principles.

I say this as a longtime Nader fan and defender though not voter. I’ve got several of his books, autographed in a couple cases. But I don’t believe anything Nader is doing will accomplish goals that I share with him, so I don’t vote for him.

They are simply one arm of the Corporate Government, put out there so that we Libs can pretend we have someone on “our” side. Please. Fuck them.

Can you tell me, can you honestly tell me that if Gore was elected president rather then Bush our country would be in the pile of trouble it is now? IT DOES MATTER, it may be shades of grey but alot can happen in that colorwheel.

TBogg wins the internets.

Also, Democracy Now is, for the most part, sanctimonious as fuck. As is The Nation. And I say that as someone very much of the left.

If you really think that the political system is broken beyond repair, you have a blueprint from the 1770s to help you out.

Dude! Way to totally harsh my mellow, man… I’m totally voting for Dr. Ron now!

Well said, man.

I’m a proud member of the San Francisco Green Party.

In 2000 I voted for Gore.

As I explained to my fellows, that whole spiel about “two wings of the same party dempublican pox-on-both-their-corporate-whore-houses” only goes so far.

And when it comes to a Bush in the White House?

No, no, this must be stopped.

When Nader went to Florida two days before the election in 2000 he deeply betrayed the progressive movement.

I didn’t fault him for running — quite the contrary — but the strategic decision to hit Gore at that point may mark one of the saddest turning points in history.

Shorter: fuck you Ralph.

Fluffy Bunny Bund? That is just awesome.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/.....-son-says/

Does this mean teh return of 5 brothers Sunday blogging?

But Dr. Phil said it was true!

Plummet: yeah, that put a little excitement into my extra-special underroos, too.

Oh, and tbogg, your response just made my week. As a severely repentant Naderite from waay back in the bad ol’ days (I was Shiny Sparkle Pony at the party in 2000) your snarkalicious post struck home and hurt as it should.

Ouch. That’s going to leave a mark.

Tbogg, thanks for so gently providing the reality check to those who, possibly due to self-medication, think that it makes any fuckin’ sense whatsoever to vote for Ralph Fuckin’ Nader. Of course, if the Dems can’t overcome the 1% or less he’s going to get, we all got real problems.

Of course the commenter’s right about the Dems. But the fucking answer isn’t to run a LieberDem like asshole dumbfuck Nader so he can syphon off Dem votes to help the reThugs win or keep it close enough for them to cheat it in with or w/o the SCOTUS. What a stupid, arrogant self righteous little prick.

Someone’s gift to the Republicans. The smart twin trickled down his father’s leg.

BTW, this is perhaps not the ideal time or place for it, but the fairy tale theme prompts me to wish Monica Goodling all the best on her engagement to Little Republican Shit, her intended. I wonder if touching wee wees will be a radicalizing experience for her?

Mebbe not…

The Post of the Year contest? It’s over. Brilliant and hilarious.

Our job is to keep John McCain out of the Oval Office, because……. well, here’s the thing: I won’t look at Cindy “Crazy Eyes” McCain for 4-8 years. I won’t…. I can’t.

Fuck off, Ralph. Your expiration date was about 40 years ago.

montysano - “The Post of the Year contest? It’s over.”

From your lips to the FSM’s ear.

Ralph Nader is irrelevant. In 2004 for he got around 400,000 votes out of 1.2 million cast.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11.....nader.html

I doubt he will even get that many if he gets on any ballots.

He is not the only voice in the wilderness crying out against the corporate criminality controlling the country, but the media whores who believe they are so much better than the rest of us in deciding what and who are important, can’t pass up the opportunity to create a controversy. And it looks like many have fallen for it.

I’m saddened at this perennial anti-Nader vitriol from progressives. Hillary Clinton abetted an illegal and counterproductive war that has killed hundreds of thousands of people pointlessly. Obama protested this war prior to entering the Senate but took no action to defund it.

Ralph Nader’s never killed anyone and indeed has saved innumerable lives.

Under our system, and even under a better system, it makes no sense to support a Nader candidacy, but with Kucinich out of the race no one else on the campaign trail is speaking truth to Democratic power. No one, including Nader, is arguing that Republicans aren’t worse; that’s a strawman argument.

If Democrats, given all the aces in their hand, fear losing because of Nader’s spoiler role, that says more about their insecurity and fear of engaging their base than about any intrinsic threat posed by Nader.

Flypsyde says:

The Dems have licked Bush’s ass for seven years, enabling him almost every step of the way. They are simply one arm of the Corporate Government, put out there so that we Libs can pretend we have someone on “our” side.

My problem with your statement is your reference to “the Dems” as being other. You should become a Dem and change the party. The reality of our system is that there are only two viable parties. Take the one that is the lesser of two evils and try to make it better. Eventually maybe you and I can have enough influence to actually change the system so that more voices can be heard through more parties, but sitting on the side or pretending to do good by doing bad won’t accomplish that change.

As for Nader, his goal in running is simply to keep his income from book sales and speaking engagements up. He proved that in 2004 when he accepted financial assistance from Republicans to get on the ballot.

I really hate to point this out, but Nader didn’t cause Gore’s loss in 2000 - Gore’s lousy campaign did that all by itself. (Exhibit A: running mate Joe Lieberman. You know, Lieberman didn’t just become a selfish asshole in 2006, y’all.) And the Gore of 2000 was not the Gore we’ve seen over the last few years - if he had been, he’d have solved most of his own problems.

But, even though I agree with much of what the comment that launched this post said, a Nader candidacy will not fix any of those problems. The Presidency can only effect a positive agenda if you have the influence and power necessary to get Congress to do what you want/need. Without a large bloc of Congresscritters on your side (at least 40%, as the current Congress has shown), you’re basically isolated and relatively powerless. And I seriously doubt a President Nader would even get a honeymoon in DC.

I’ve come to believe in the philosophy espoused by Atrios as “more and better Democrats”. Yes, it’s gonna be a long, slow game. But it’s the only one that will ever provide a satisfactory conclusion.

darthvegas nails it down;

Can you tell me, can you honestly tell me that if Gore was elected president rather then Bush our country would be in the pile of trouble it is now? IT DOES MATTER, it may be shades of grey but alot can happen in that colorwheel.

Haven’t we been fighting the whole “black or white” vision thing on every issue for the past seven years? I appreciate the frustration of all the Nader supporters, I really do, but let me make this simple: This is a two (two) party system. While the folks at Kos, Firedoglake, etc., etc., have literally revolutionized change from within, you continue to tilt at your third party windmills instead of joining the real fight.

Alito, Roberts. Need I say more?

And can you tell me why Gore conceded to Bush in 2000, although there remained other legal options on the table to fight the Coup? Why, as per usual, the Dem was the one to play the nice guy and cry “uncle” first? Do you remember Gore gaveling the brave black representatives to silence in the house as the final nails were put in the coffin of American “democracy?” Without Gore’s spinlessness, and the same from congressional dems during the bush years, and Kerry’s bizarre early concession in 2004, we ALSO would not be in the mess we’re in. At some point, shades of grey become so indistinguishable as to be meaningless, and thinking people have to say WTF?.

I am still a registered Democratic voter. However, the party began to lose me with its feeble reaction to the Bush coup in 2000, then completely lost me after I worked for John Kerry’s campaign in Florida only to watch him concede the election while Ohio was still in play. I also had to sit and listen to him lecture his audience at a Fort Lauderdale speech about “family values.” Fuck, I said to the person seated next to me, I can hear this shit from Bush on television. I left early.

I believe my vote was stolen twice in Florida, in 2000 and 2004. I haven’t heard word one about it from any major Dem players since…they are not interested in fundamental, radical change. And I am not interested in anything less. Since I can’t change anything but my corner of the universe, and I believe it is far beyond my power to affect meaningful influence on the vast corruption of the American system of government, I have elected to adopt a more mature, european view of politics: the participants are all basically liars and fakes, differing in degree; there is a HUGE game being played nationally and globally, the outlines of which none of us even begins to grasp and I ahve no power to change that; the election process is a diversion to entertain and diffuse the restlessness of the “electorate;” etc; and so I will have no part of it.

I work hard to make good “stuff” in my business, I am good to my kids, and those around me, and I work on being a better person. Perhaps the saddest part of POLITICS is that it enables millions of people to pretend they are doing the same by going to rallies and weeping over the awesomeness of a charismatic political savior, then going into a booth and pulling a lever to cast a vote that may or may not be counted, all the while neglecting their own corner of the universe, where they might really make a difference.

You’ll never force your party to take you seriously by abandoning it.

Will someone please buy Nader a Corvair, rip out the seatbelts, adjust the throttle so it sicks, and then send him down Pike’s Peak?

I request this because that’s basically what he did to the country in 2000 when he ran his vanity campaign.

Listen — I understand the frustration with the Democratic Party. But as others have pointed out, the solution isn’t to join the side of some past-his-prime consumer advocate who hasn’t been relevant in years and who is running in a party that most people don’t know exists. It’s to elect better Democrats.

So how about we focus on the real world, and leave the pie-in-the-sky dreaming to poets, Fluffy Bunnies and us Royals fans.

(Okay … so the last group is more delusional than anything. But you get my point.)

Dear Naderites: You do the slow, tedious, much-less-fun-than-hackysack work of making instant runoff voting the law of the land, and we’ll put your Saint Ralph at the top of our ballots. Deal?

You’ll never force your party to take you seriously by abandoning it.

Indeedy. Hug the leg of gutless incrementalism with both arms, as if your very life depended on it, and maybe when the Democrats get that 90th Senate seat they’ll stop letting themselves get pushed around by Li’l Lord 28%. It’s not about some imaginary standard of purity, it’s about the fact that the 2006 election was about one very specific thing, and absolutely nothing has been done about that. Capitulation is not a strategy, anymore than ideological self-immolation is.

But then, since McCain’s chief strategist works for Hillary’s chief strategist, and both men have made their careers representing everyone from Union Carbide to the Argentine military junta, I’m not sure why anything else should be expected.

Not to ruin the thanksralphery, but even the basic assumption that he “stole” Saint Albert’s votes is incorrect. I was never going to vote for Gore in any instance in 2000, nor would any of the people I knew who voted for Nader. At some point, it should be time to get over it, realize that Gore had tremendous liabilities as a candidate in 2000, and a lot of stupid dog-ate-my-homework excuses over fundraising, and could not even carry his own home state. Nader was part of the problem, but there were many other problems, some of which still exist systemically within the party’s operational strategies.

Forget Nader already, and remember Harry Truman: when people are given a choice between a fake Republican and a real one, usually they vote for the real one. It’s not that complicated.

Tom Hilton:

If you’re determined to help McCain win by voting for a third party, at least have the courage of your convictions and vote for McCain.

Grow the fuck up and accept responsibility for your choices.

So, because the guy (or gal) running for Prom King (or Queen) hasn’t fucked you, you’re going to…vote for one of the teachers?

Makes just as much sense…

If you’re determined to help McCain win by voting for a third party, at least have the courage of your convictions and vote for McCain.

Is there some sort of heretofore hidden ‘08 groundswell for Thanksralph? I don’t think so. Most of the attention he’s getting is either from incompetent horserace announcers such as Punkinhead Russert, or the punctual rendering of eight-year-old garments. We get it. No one’s voting for Thanksralph this year.

Either Obama will spank McCain, or Hillary will energize McCain’s base more than her own and squeak by, ensuring at least four more years of diffidence and genuflection, whilst shoveling out the Cheney stable. Hell, they don’t even have the fuckin’ guts to put Lieberman in his place, why should anyone expect them to stand up to C-Plus Augustus?

Oh. Sorry, I thought you were describing the Happy Kingdom that our Lord Obama will bring.

Why oh why is this incorrect meme still around. The Republican’s in Florida stole the election in 2000. They were prepared to do whatever it took to win. If nader wasn’t involved, the Republican machine was still going to steal as many votes as it took to win, maybe Nader meant less vote stealing, but the problem is the Republican’s not Nader

Is it me or are there tons more Nader ’supporters’ this year? Perhaps all of these advocates who’ll spend the next 9 months trying to get Democrats to vote for St. Ralph will end up convincing themselves to vote for him instead of the charismatic John McCain. Wouldn’t it be a hoot if a Republican financed Nader campaign actually ends up draining votes from McCain? Tough choice for Republicans….which rich, old white man to vote for?

Why did this post remind me of the South Park Woodland Critters Christmas episode, the one with the Satanic cult animals?

“Oh. Sorry, I thought you were describing the Happy Kingdom that our Lord Obama will bring.”

Oo, snap, Uberblonde, you beat me to it.
Just don’t try running for office while you maintain that nasty, tough, unwomanly tood, though.

Signed,
Unterblonde

Mr. Tbogg:
The commenter is way correct. I’m surprised that you told him to fuck off. Of course, as John Nichols once told me, “Comrade, you’ll do the right thing in the voting booth come November.” & that’s true, although, frankly, I will do so with absolutely no enthusiasm, as I have since 1972. What have the Dems done for you lately? If you ask your boys, I’ll bet Beckham will show a bit of Bassett dick.

Certainly wouldn’t want that awful Nader guy to distract us from the important choice we have between the Lieberman Protege and the DLC charter member. Nothing to see here, move along.

Noting that with our current (totally bogus) voting system that requires you to vote for the frontrunner that sucks least I don’t see the point of a Nader run. Still, electing another cautious centrist sellout isn’t going to fix anything. Sucks less still sucks.

Bill at No. 34.
Meme or Math?

2000 Florida results
Bush: 2,912,790
Gore: 2,912,253
Nader: 97,421

Bush “beats” Gore by about 500 votes per the final certified results of the recount truncated by GOP lawsuits, ultimately fixed by the Republican Supreme Court.

If you can convince yourself that Nader voters would all have stayed home or voted Socialist in Florida in 2000, g’ahead, keep believing in St. Ralph the Pure. Most of us figure at least 600 more Nader voters would have held their noses and voted for Gore than Bush if Ralph hadn’t been on the ballot. It’s not a meme, it’s a reasonable hypothesis.

As for what have the Dems done for me lately, ColdH20wi? As meager as it is, I’ll take a minimum wage hike, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a promise to leave Iraq and, incredibly, an outside shot at universal health care over the hideous alternatives any day.

Just want to say how very pissed off I am not to live in Happy Gumdrop Fairy-Tale Land.

A pissoff, but there you have it.
Those of us who don’t belong to the Lollipop Guild must muddle on as best we can… even if it means voting ’straight Dem’ for the second time in 20+ years (the first time being 2006).

Exasperating. But that’s what grown ups sometimes have to do.