what is wrong with what nader has said? is it not true that our political system has been corrupted, and that obama has been a full participant in that corrupt system?

for the most part it seems that regardless of any personal antipathy i have myself towards nader, he has staked out the areas that many progressives and liberals want this nation to move to, and obama has not. but for that nader is ridiculed even by those who want what he wants for america.

will obama push for a single payer health system?

will obama push for full lobbying reform?

will obama push for repeal of taft-hartley?

will obama push for a total overhaul of the war on drugs and decriminalization of marijuana?

will obama push for a return of the fairness doctrine?

in each of these cases progressives know obama will pay only lip service to these causes, yet people think the sun shines out his asshole.

are we so greedy to win that we lose our principles?

i wish people could have the mental acumen to listen to what nader is saying instead of like tboggs has by ridiculing the personality of the man, it is too cheap and easy target to do so instead of serious cogitation about how the democratic presidential candidate is now nothing more than than a mouthpiece for 1980’s style pro-choice moderate republican rhetoric.

i’ll vote for obama only because of the fact that the president appoints new judeges to the SCOTUS, but likely he will disappoint me even there.

It is like being a pro-wrestling fan. You’re buying the melodrama and desperately rooting for your guy, who will be having dinner and drinks with his “mortal enemy” in a couple of hours. Scripted to maintain the status quo.

Yes, I want all of those things too. And I’ve been a longtime admirer of Nader. But I didn’t vote for him, because while the democrats disappoint in ways that are frequently just a lighter shadow of the actively malicious policies we get from republicans, not voting for them is worse. I’m a practical idealist, and the choice is essentially between half a loaf… and a lottery ticket you’re hoping will pay to move your family out of the car.

i wish people could have the mental acumen to listen to what nader is saying instead of like tboggs has by ridiculing the personality of the man, it is too cheap and easy target to do so instead of serious cogitation about how the democratic presidential candidate is now nothing more than than a mouthpiece for 1980’s style pro-choice moderate republican rhetoric.

So, if Nadar is elected President, magically, all these things will come into being, right? Please. Ask Hillary how that went in ‘93 with Healthcare. We live in the real world and I for one am sick and tired of quotes from Nadarites like the one above claiming I don’t have the mental acumen or I don’t understand. We understand all too well; that’s why we are fighting in the trenches while Nadarites bray about Plans for Utopia from their super secret headquarters in Mom’s basement. This is trench warfare not Civilization III on the ol’ laptop.

It is like being a pro-wrestling fan. You’re buying the melodrama and desperately rooting for your guy, who will be having dinner and drinks with his “mortal enemy” in a couple of hours. Scripted to maintain the status quo.

Honestly? So you think that if Gore had been inaugurated in 2001, we’d have been in Iraq? Do you even think that Gore could have ignored the PDB of August 2001, like Bush did? Yeah, the Democrats are not as ideologically pure as your progressive purity ball candidate, but there’s no way in hell that they’re the same as the criminal regime currently occupying the White House. That’s a fucking stupid thing to say. I don’t blame Nader for the Republicans stealing Florida in 2000, but he certainly abetted the crime.

Absolutely not. But let me ask a question in return, would he have worked tirelessly to dismantle the apparatus and notion that we are an empire and that the prime diplomatic tool in the box is our armed forces? Or even if he did would any combination in congress allow it? And as a follow up I would then ask if he or anybody in Washington has a plan for returning to the republic that has been replaced by a plutocracy?
Changing the government temporarily by a few degrees is not change. Incidentally I work for Obama, my argument was not for Nader, but frustration with a lifetime of stupid government.

So how much money are Republicans pumping into the Nader campaign this time? Anyone that bites on Nader this time really is clueless about the nature of our politics. The choice is simple – vote for change in the Executive branch or vote for an older version of Bush.

Amend that: volunteer for Obama.

Thinking of Nader (may he burn in everlasting hell for throwing the 2000 election to Bush) I am reminded that many of my liberal friends refused to vote for Humphrey in 1968. Had they done so, he would have won, Nixon would never have become President, and the present criminals would not now be running the country. Humphrey lost that election by half a million votes, but in the places where it counted (Ohio as always), it was a lot less. A couple of extra votes per precinct would have changed history.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is still evil. My vote is for Nader.

INSANE McKANE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwTKM_u-7j4

hope you like President McCain and cheney STILL pulling all the strings

Why should I compromise my beliefs? Nader is the only one who hasn’t sold out to the plutocrats…the only one with National Health Care…The only one who will really fight the corporations with a proven record to boot…What does Obama offer except more of the same? He and McCain are about equal in that department.

I believen TBogg said it best: Your Mumia Sweatshirt won’t get you into Heaven Anymore.

Nader is all about Nader.

I’m not too excited about Obama- but the strategy of letting the goopers keep the White House and control the court system until we have a “truly progressive” candidate is bankrupt—-a bridge to nowhere.

hahahahahaha
because if ya think things are bad now…it will get much worse….guess nobody in your family ever told you about the GREAT DEPRESSION,or you are not aware of the Katrina disaster…WAKE UP….America will be nightmare under more Republican rule

people are so very naieve

do you really think Darth is gonna go retire somewhere QUIET????
hahahahahahahahahaha
he loves power….it keeps his non heart beating

That’s sort of a name calling put-down there. My vote is my dream for the future. I should NOT have to vote for evil just to perpetuate more evil, because in the end, it’s still bad…

And how will the Democrats stop this Depression since they are in bed with the same corporations? Funded by the same conglomerates? Taking that filthy lucre from the same lobbyists?

yeah, but the same could be said about obama and clinton. it’s true, but i don’t see what it actually tell us.

Of the two crazy old men running for president this year, Nader is definitely the better choice.

Nader saying that Democrats and Republics are about equal benefits Republics. It is a nonsensical statement from Nader.

read about FDR…the republicans votede against Social Security ,the GI Bill,everything we have that is a social safety net…come on people…IF YA DONT FIGHT for your goalsthey will be gone…hasnt the last 8 years taught you anything…………..fer F*********KS sakes…we are already underwater

But isn’t it true? Both are bought and paid for by their respective lobbyists who give to both sides so they can control the winner. I don’t see how the parties being D and R cause different results. Same input = same output.

are we feeding trolls today?

The people get the president they deserve- and it’s beginning to look as if that willl be John McCain- Obama’s campaign seems to be on the rocks and he can’t even get the dems behind him…

Hail to the Chief- the seventy two year old boy wonder!

flash

NADER HASNT A SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL to win

not fighting HARD to get Obama elected,will bring Darth and the gang back into power for the foreseeable future
its really that simple
McGiggolo is just another Dumbya sttoge

It is not true, but believing it is true benefits the Republic machine.

and has no one else ever made a nonsensical statement?

how about bill clinton telling us how good nafta would be for americans (and mexicans)?

seriously – if you compare policy positions, if you compare who got it right first i will bet you that nader comes out way ahead of any dem cadidate save kucinich.

so why all of the vitriol towards nader? all it serves to do is alienate his supporters (not a great way to convince them to vote dem btw) and to prevent his analysis from being discussed. imo, neither of these are good things.

oh sorry ,of course you are correct

pore Obama…why wasnt he born SNOW white and perfect….”g”

p.s. if you are going to condemn him for something he said, why not give a link so the whole statement can be independently evaluated?

he can’t even get the dems behind him

Somewhere, the Clintons are smiling.

really selise,isnt it time to fight for the ANTI-Fascist canidate,why are you undermining that fight?

The Nader strategy is, presumably, to force the dems to the left by denying them the white house until they embrace his positions….

OK- he took the White House away from them once- so if there’s any juice in his theory- we should have a more left leaning candidate- is Obama running to the left of Gore- the great Satan that Nader slew in 2000?

I don’t think this shit WORKS.. It’s not a moral issue- it’s a practical one. It’s NEVER worked.

Nader’s staements are pretty well known by now.

THIS IS SO F*************ed up
WE DO DESERVE cheney and co………………..forever

Hmm Nader, another person from CT. Strangely enough I am proud of him, as opposed to *cough* Holy Joe.
I think Nader is right. If the Dems don’t win this season, then there has to be some serious reconsideration. Blame Rahm. Blame the Blue Dogs. I don’t think Nader is responsible for Obama’s “overheated campaign rhetoric” on NAFTA.
However, I do think we dems will win, in spite of Obama and advisors and Rahm and others doing everything with left feet.

im going to more fruitfull endeavors…see ya

And I think Selise is right. Democrats need a whip. I don’t think of Nader has to be the “spoiler.” I didn’t have that position in 2000, but I think I do now.

something else…. people who’ve voted for nader are by and large natural political allies of progressives. when we bash nader’s supporters all we do is help the corporate wing of the dem party drive the wedge deeper – and make sure that we never come together to challenge the dem party leadership.

is that really what we want to be doing?

Mornin’ Tom,

Ortho No Concern of Mine Strip®
read the gd instructions and hang it higher next time please

When commenting on Nader, don’t forget his running mate, the poetic young Matt Gonzalez.

Let Matt help Nader in every way, including shouldering whatever “blame” for a McCain presidency.

Anyway, if you really want to know I think Nader may have given Lamont a wink. Green independants really helped that campaign.

You and the right wing really buy into this concept of “evil”. You apparently liked McCean’s “defeat it” answer. It seems, to quote Don McClean, “the world was never meant for one as beautiful as you.” Oh well, with any luck, there will be enough voters who can discrimate among 250 or so shades of gray.

@45 And made contributions. So . . .

Yes, by all means, let’s not alienate Nader supporters who are telling us the people we support are just as evil as the Republicans and they’re never going to vote for them!

Candidates who have no chance of winning can always take policy positions that are purer than those who do. I don’t put much stock in comparisons of positions that don’t take into account ability to get them implemented. Frankly, that’s why I’ve never been big on Kucinich, either — I love a lot of his positions, but I’ve never seen much evidence that he has any idea how to make them happen.

my take: 2008 is not 2000.

first of all, there is a dem majority in congress now. second, i now can see how bad the Rs can be. third, i now can see how bad the Ds can be.

i don’t think there are any easy answers here and while i have my own views, i’m not so sure of them that i’m going to be condemning any of my allies (the obama voting ones or the nader voting ones) just because they have a slightly different perspective on tactics.

No need to bash Nader supporters- nothing wrong, though, in an open discussion of whether his candidacy benefits the left or the right is there?

your secret wish comes true

Poll shows McCain in 5-point lead over Obama
Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:01am EDTPost Your Comments | All Comments Email | Print | Share| Reprints | Single Page | Recommend (-) [-] Text [+]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – In a sharp turnaround, Republican John McCain has opened a 5-point lead on Democrat Barack Obama in the U.S. presidential race and is seen as a stronger manager of the economy, according to a Reuters/Zogby poll released on Wednesday.

McCain leads Obama

Volunteer for Obama, put some energy where it counts rather than wasting it in a vote for Nader. Volunteer for your Dem ‘downstream’ candidates. Then get your ass to the polls to vote for Obama, and take someone else along with you. Get your friends to promise to do the same. The Got Ours, Pissoff party isn’t going down without a fight.

well the vast majority of the people i know who did vote for nader in 2000 are the same people who were on the streets of seattle shutting down the wto when i had no idea what suffering our neoliberal trade policies were causing.

in many ways i owe them for paying attention when i wasn’t and furthermore, i was never condemned or really even criticized for my support of Ds.

Ralph Nader will not be the cause for an Obama defeat. It will be Obama’s inability to mount an effective and aggressive general election campaign. His campaign echos Kerry’s in 2004. He thinks he can plead for an honorable campaign from Republicans. This is the height of political naivete and Americans see through the “can’t we all get along” meme. Americans want a fighter and not someone who is constantly having to defend himself against Republicans smears and subterfuge.

You are absolutely correct that all candidates for President have high self esteem. Since 2000, I am not sure what Nader has done to improve the lives of average Americans. Has he run ads promoting national health care. Has he run ads faulting the Bush administration for being in the pocket of oil companies. I just haven’t seen him promoting all these wonderful issues.

Polls are definately going in McBush’s direction at the moment. Obama’s small lead appears to have gone away…

He is apparently investing in the ‘ground game’ rather than teevee- so he might be building an advantage that’s invisible at the moment- or he may just be losing.

McBush is moving hard to the center and has now disowned Clusterfuck- if the public buys that- he’s tough to beat.

Very true.

no if he goes down it will be us ….his so called DEM supporters who failed to well SUPPORT him

i’ll definitely back you on having that discussion.

just feel a need to defend people who have been my allies (and i think are yours) and who have continued to help and work with me even when my politics is far, far more conventional than theirs.

i call BS……………..lets get enthusiastic about this fight.we have no other choice………….the GOOPERS are counting on us being APATHETIC,Obama isnt perfect enuf…………………..wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Please knock on doors. Talk to your neighbors, listen to what they are saying.

Obama won’t win or lose this by himself. I think something was learned after Kerry’s Swiftboating. Obama is smart. McSame is (same) dumb as W.

I don’t love Obama. But I am volunteering for him.

Nader is simply a perpetual candidate now. He’ll be back in 2012.

we need to RALLY round this guy…..have pride and enthusiasm in his positives

praise the lord…word ……………..

TV is the place where a candidate defines who he is and who is opponent is. Once an image has been created it’s hard to change minds. McCain has defined who Obama is. Obama let him take the initiative in the TV wars. After all most Americans get their news from the airwaves, they are not spending time reading blogs and searching out alternative sources of information. By Sept., Oct. and Nov. many of those ground volunteers are going to have the doors slammed in their faces because the “electorate” already knows who Obama is because McCain told them.

Obama may fear being labeled an angry black man if he attacks McBush—I don’t know what he’s thinking- but if he doesn’t find a way to start ginning up McBush’s negatives, this thing’s all over whether Nader takes 1 point or four.

good question. i don’t have a very good answer to your question, so i will just leave it out there for the interested to investigate if they wish.

Ah well this sums it up for me.

yah,like a bad penny and all the years IN BETWEEN elections……………………………………………………………………..
…
….
…
…
crickets

In the year of 2008 would you and anyone trust the word of a man who is quite proud that he has NEVER used a computer AND the internet?

Listened to a NPR interview with Nader oh…. somewhere in 2006 where he was quite clearly stated that he never used a computer, pretty much implied that that the internets were evil and types up his stuff on an old electric typewriter…. Ok don’t bring up the fact that he does not drive and has never driven & does not have a divers license as a defense…. NOT the same.

WE have one joker running who is just about that level now who happens to be my Senator…. McBush…. Nader’s ego is beyond what is good for America.

What has Nader done for America in the last 10-20 years except ride on his old glory and is ego?

why are you undermining that fight?

i don’t think i am.

doesn’t mean i’m not wrong though.

Looks as if this race is going to begin after the convention with the runners in a dead heat out of the blocks…

Hard to see exactly how Obama opens up a lead at that point- but maybe he knows what he’s doing.

Actually my @68 was in response to Selise @49. On slightly different tactics, well we are human. These are people we meet in our neighborhood. Heh.

Great post, Tbogg! I was just wondering why Nader runs when he, as an intelligent man, knows he has no chance of winning. How can he dare risk another McBush term that basically dismantles the form of government we’ve grown to love and disassemble our free society just to protest.

The same goes for all of us who feel we hate the idea of choosing the lesser of two evils. But if the lesser of two evils is your only viable option, and to abstain simply gives everyone else a voice without yours (especially since you have arguably a better education and better judgment) then you’re just passing off your responsibility. You’re giving up and giving in.

To me, the problem with Nader is that he wants to fight the corruption of the system from the top down. Reality tells us the best way to fight corruption is from the bottom up. It’s like trying to build a pyramid starting at the top. You first need the base. The only thing high numbers for the spoilers does is indicates a lot of dissatisfaction and the significance of the numbers shows the percent of the population that want to move to more to the left and the percent that want to move more right. Funny thing is that those two extremes do seem to have two things in common: an attitude that says take us out of Iraq and a firmer determination to protect and defend the Constitution. Still, it would be surprising if both percentages added together would equal or surpass 20%. That is not a winning scenario.

LOL!!! awesome!!!

The issue may come down to:

Is the country better off with a centerist leaning dem in the White House or with a gooper in the white house but with an argument that the dem could have won if he had gone further left in his campaign?

I like it too.

please selise,i dont want to leave the country,move lock stock and barrel,this is the most important election,of my long life.
Fight for Obama,
fight for the democrats,
another REpuke prez with signing statements and Cheneys executive priviledge will seal Americas fate to the Fascisto…simple as that

So you think it’s pretty much over?

By the way,

Disagreeing with people is not attacking them..were it so- discussion would be useless

oh by the by
McBush and Wall Steet WILL dismantle SS

pps i think dear Ralph is the same age as McTheusalah

Jane’s up back at the mothership

Yeah, Nader is such a smart guy: his running mate from days of yore was a fucking Indian princess. Not that she wouldn’t address very tangible issues, but VP of the fucking country and your experience focuses on tribal issues? Thanks, asshole.

Nader has cost this country quite enough I think. He is an ego-driven narcissist who wants attention every 4 years. I detest the man and hold him responsible to the misery of the last 7 1/2 years. I don’t know what the people who vote for him are.

Ralphy baby is………………….75!

Here’s my issue. Instead of attacking Green party folks head on, we should try and defuse the tensions. The “left most” members of the Dem party share some of the same goals. It makes no sense to attack, because that only hardens resistance, and increases resentment. I’ve seen that Hardening Stance in some Green folks that I know in 2000. So, who doesn’t stand to benefit from a better rapport with the Green Party? Who? Could it be DLC types? Do we consider those DLC types our allies? Rahm, Harold Ford? Nader has stepped aside before, and created a symbolic candidacy.

amen.

What’s your alternative? Fiddling as Rome burns? Protesting in vain until they have gained enough strength to completely ban protesting? Better to work within the system, bottom up not top down. We need to face reality; that reality is that we are a minority in a pluralistic society. Majority will always win.

Exactly.

And the Main Stream Media is the referee who misses major fouls by the “bad guy” and insists that a nit-picky minor foul by the “good guy” be punished.

Yes, the U.S.A. uses Professional Wrestling as a model of Psuedo-Democracy.

And the rubes in the stands eat it up and ask for more.

My # 89 was meant as a reply to numbers 1 and 2.

exactly. dlc types are not my allies. they are not the people i saw organizing against the iraq war. they are not the people i saw organizing against the ftaa.

dude, its morning so maybe you still have sleep in your eyes but in calling me a naderite you missed that i posted the following…..

“for the most part it seems that regardless of any personal antipathy i have myself towards nader, …….

i’ll vote for obama only because of the fact that the president appoints new judeges to the SCOTUS, but likely he will disappoint me even there.”

obama is not some sort of black moses leading his people to the promised land. he is simply the lesser of two evils, but nevertheless still evil via a vis true progressive social change. i know we have to start somewhere and the overton window is way shifted to the right but obama is heading for the middle and we know that when democrats do so they lose elections.

it kind of funny to be called a kid living in my mom’s house by someone obviously a generation younger than myself, you see, i’m a 54 year old man who runs two businesses but remains a progressive dispite the fact that the causes i espouse with my time and money hurt my wallet and business bottom line. so instead of demomizing your imaginary foes who truly want to bring about social change you ought awaken and cut out the insults.

btw i think that you are a full of shit about your “fighting in the trenches.” i doubt very much that you are a member of some 21st century avatar of the Spartacist League. that’s just over the top hysterical hyperbole typically spoken by those who think that going door to door or making phone calls in an air conditioned room makes them political activists.

I honestly don’t want to see McKinney vilified in the same way either.

Nader isn’t even on the ballot in most states, correct?

Beating up ourselves and each other is not helpful to any cause.

Peace out.

My sister and brother-in-law worked for Nader in 2000. They are far left (nothing wrong with that), and usually support a third-party candidate. Both the Reps AND Dems disgust them. I assumed they would be supporting McKinney. Yet, they recently assured me that they are supporting Obama, despite him not being their dream candidate, to put it mildly. They said, “We have to block McSame or this country is doomed”. Yup.

This gives me hope. If they can hold their noses and vote for Obama, anybody can. I don’t think Nader is going to get a lot of votes.

Don’t kid yourself..My wife voted for Nader in 2000…she held her nose and voted for Kerry and felt soiled by him…I agreed with her. I’m joining her with Nader in ‘08. No one has said anything that dissuades me that Obama is going to be any less a tool of the big plutocrats than McCain. Heck, McCain said he was for campaign finance reform, too, remember? Who’s kidding who here?

But Obama wasn’t braying about “let’s attack Iraq” within weeks of 9/11. McCain was. He also had Iran and Syria on the list by early 2002. This is not someone we want in the WH.

Keep up this theme Obama is weak in the polls and the Left has deserted the Dems before for the last two Presidential elections the Dems assumed the Left would support them because we had no place to go. They were wrong
For the last two Presidential elections the Dems tried to win the center they failed.
For the last two Presidential elections nothing has been done about diebold counted election fraud or denying black and brown people the right to vote.

Point taken kuvasz, and maybe I was quick to condemn, but, and it’s a big but, I am so tired of being lectured by the purists and being called a sell out. We (and I mean you and I) true progressives believe in the same things. But the enemy is already in the wire, and Nader, God Bless him, is a silly distraction. I don’t have a picture of Obama over my bed either, but he’s the reality, and Ralph is the pipe dream.

And, btw, I am 43, run two business myself, have worked on the following campaigns over the years. Clinton(twice), Dukakis, Kerry, and Rush Holt my local congressmen. Also been to my share of war protests and others. Now, granted, this may not be much too you, because I’m sure you’ve been laying down in front of the tanks before the run to Baghdad, but hey, I think I try.

It seems to me if Nader were half the spoiler folks claim him to have been.. Obama and many other Dems might not be consistently running to the right…and only to the right.

I lost the bookmark with what appeared to be reliable figures, but in 2000, 3 million so called Dems voted for Bush. Far more than the number who voted for Nader. yet so many of us turn on the guy who affected Bush’s stolen election less and spoke far more to the issues and end results we are looking for. It never ceases to amaze me… why this is the case.

Obama chooses a conservative VP (Hillary or Bayh etc.) and I will most likely vote for Nader. I’m trying my damnedest to work for change within the D party, but when that doesn’t happen, I will vote somewhere else.

I would never try to convince someone to vote for Obama. Gives me the freedom to tell you to go fuck yourself. Vote for whoever the fuck you want. I just don’t want to hear any bitching when your daughter dies in a back alley abortion because President McCain put a Roberts clone on the bench.

Oh Jesus Fucking Christ.

Felt “soiled by him”? My god. I hope in Naderland that there will be plenty of counseling for the “defiled while voting.”

Both of you need to grow the fuck up.

Dream for the future but vote for the present.

The problem with Nader: he talks but has not invested himself in implementing the changes he calls for. He’s now had over 8 years to start building a credible opposition, and he’s done nothing. He just takes an ego trip every four years, and tries to convince people to travel with him.

There is a reason Obama is now sinking below McInsane in the polls: he is too much like McInsane on overall policies and goals and not enough like Nader.

Obama has fallen NOT because he isn’t “centrist” enough. He has fallen because he is NOT offering a compelling reason to vote FOR him vs just another GOPer! Platitudes don’t cut it. Flip-flopping on FISA doesn’t cut it. Being in favor of a long (permanent) US military presence in Iraq doesn’t cut it (Obama is FOR this, he just wants to pull out most combat troops by 2011 – HE STILL WANTS BASES AND TROOPS IN IRAQ THOUGH!).

Obama should be able to walk away with this election without busting a sweat but…he has instead sucked up to, and is advised by, DLCers and neoliberals (necons with a liberal-lite social bent only). Instead of drawing a stark line between the Dems and the GOP, he is seeking to blend the two in a disgusting and pointless mush of “bipartisanship”.

If Obama were progressive and promising to roll back many or most of Bush’s policies, then we’d be somewhere, but instead he has worked feverishly to make sure that people understand that he is not going to do anything “drastic” (by DLC reckoning) and will merely moderate the Bush.

I may actually vote for Nader out of spite to those who worship Obama and think that no matter what he does or doesn’t do, that is A-OK, and you MUST vote for him just because he has a magicalmystical “D” by his name (as if that means shit anymore).

Oh Jesus Fucking Christ.

Felt “soiled by him”? My god. I hope in Naderland that there will be plenty of counseling for the “defiled while voting.”

Both of you need to grow the fuck up.

Yep. The overbearing angst of the politcally pure (on both sides) never fails to amaze me. And if they do soil themselves again, let’s hope it’s a ‘two-sie’.

I wish I lived in Fairy Land.

Where my election picks mirror all of my thoughts and dreams & never make decisions that disappoint me after they’re elected. Heaven.

There are important factors about Nader that make it really important not to support him.

1. Traditional 3 party races have always (until 2000) involved the one without a chance of winning, in the eleventh hour, withdrawing and telling his supporters to go with what in his mind is the least worst. In other words, pragmatically, Nader should have withdrawn from the race in the week before the elections and told his people to vote for Gore. He did not do this, so instead of getting his least worst we got the worst of all. His insistence that one was as bad as the other demonstrated that he knew nothing of what was at stake or that he was willing to throw the entire country under the bus because he so despises/disrespects us, or maybe he just wants to be President really, really bad. That doesn’t speak well of him.

2. If the above were his only problem, he could still have some credibility with the people. But when his base withdrew its support in 2004, Nader happily took money from the Republicans to run. That’s hypocrisy because his big criticism of the others was about where they got their money. Cognitive dissonance or flat out IOKIYRN (It’s okay if you’re Ralph Nader). Hmmm…. The jury’s out.

3. If Nader was really concerned about Democracy and making change, I gotta ask, wouldn’t he have been doing what we’re doing all along? Did he and I missed it? You know, working to build a viable third party that could compete on a national level, finding good local people to put forward, working for the team, etc. Or is being President so he can be the one to fix what’s wrong with America all he’s about despite his lack of experience as an elected official in any capacity? Should we work to put another smug disrespectful ideologue in office who lacks even a basic understanding of who he is dealing with and can be manipulated to compromise his principles by his enemies? (See point 2 above)

I used to have a great deal of respect for him when he was a consumer advocate. Now, not at all.

i agree w/ kuvasz’ very first response to this piece. our system is corrupt and is bought more often than not. that said, wouldn’t it be a more viable mantra to shout this fact at every opportunity and not participate at all than sanction it by choosing the lesser of two evils.
i am voting for obama, (though i live in california where he will take our electoral votes easily.) i just hate to see a real american hero like ralph nader villified. nader has consistently fought for right over wrong and for the powerless against the powerful. the deficiencies in obama’s plans annd record are clear. he is head and shoulders a better choice than mccain and likely the very best, electable choice, (though not really different from hrc whatsoever.) somewhere between obama and nader is kucinich who like nader, in not realistically electable. still, nader has staked out a territory we could call absolute right or absolute correct. and yet, so many are willing to disparage him for giving those who demand absolute right or absolute correct, a choice or a horse in this race. that’s a shame.
here is the bottom line: nader would make a far better president than obama. when it comes to the interests of the people or a populist agenda, his record dwarfs obama’s, period.

Thanks for reminding me! That’s the other point I wanted to make.

I love having third party candidates when they’re effective in driving the other candidates to acknowledge the left and not run to the center. Unfortunately, some candidates on the left have accomplished the opposite as did Nader. I never did blame him for 2000, though. I blame us for not being engaged enough to whip Bush’s ass with an unshakable majority. I blame Joe Lieberman and the DLC and Gore for not knowing better than to listen to them. But mostly, I blame the Supreme Court and would happily impeach those who broke trust with us to put Bush in office. I’m carrying that grudge until justice is returned to America.

My problem with Nader is I DO NOT WANT HIM FOR PRESIDENT! I don’t respect him or trust him…see my post at 109. I think Obama would be better. Not perfect. Not my first choice. Just better.

Your Two-Minute Hates need a lot of work. You should go check out Kos when he tosses off a Nader post. Now THERE’s a chorus singing from the same songbook.

1. Nader did not cost Gore the election in 2000. the republicans stole that election. Nader was at best a tertiary influence after the theft, Gore’s poor campaign and Gore not fighting to have all the votes counted according to the Florida constitution. I think it hugely unlikely that Nader will make much difference this time, certainly as compared to vote caging, purging voter rolls and ready made hackable electronic voting machines.

2. By not making sure McCain is seen as the radical conservative he is, Obama is allowing the center to be open for contesting. Further, one big difference between the right and the left is that the right believes that regardless of what their champion has to say, he will still try to come through on issues of importance to them. The left does not believe this of their candidates.

3. About the only reason for someone on the left to vote for Obama (as opposed to voting against McCain) is Supreme Court Justices, and even there you still will get likely slightly anti-executive power, pro-business centrists like Souter and Ginsberg which means again the vote is really against McCain as opposed to for Obama.

So maybe we all should focus on the things that are far more likely to cost Obama the election: the media, Diebold and the Republicans lack of ethics. i would highly recommend checking out the Alternet article about Stephen Spoonamore and electronic voting machines as more important than worrying about Nader

So maybe we all should focus on the things that are far more likely to cost Obama the election: the media, Diebold and the Republicans lack of ethics. i would highly recommend checking out the Alternet article about Stephen Spoonamore and electronic voting machines as more important than worrying about Nader

AMEN! Thank you.

Reading over these comments, it would appear that there is no real argument that the Dems are now anything but eighties style Republicans who never got around to changing party affiliation.

If even Democratic Party loyalists are rooting for the Republican over the overt fascist, how is any change going to actually occur by also crushing any possible dissenting opinion? Is it not better for the Party as a whole to allow a subset to retain some small degree of principle, vote third Party, allow the Conservative beau ideal to fully discredit itself so that, eventually, they themselves will not have to parse who is the paler shade of red? View them as a time capsule which keeps alive some semblance of what a Democrat used to be.

How many Rethugs out there do you think would still like to tie Ross Perot to a telephone pole and shoot him?

A reaction of animosity toward those whose participation in a given event fucked up your whole program is not only normal but a healthy outlet for feelings of extreme loss and pain.

Ralph Nader and Michael Moore gave us Chimpy McKilldarkie and I will never, EVER forgive or forget.

Yes our political system is fucked up, but if you think Ralph Nader is the answer to our problems, you’re the last person I want near a voting booth.

TBogg, it’s still in the 100andgawdawfulF degrees here in Feenex. Can I bring Arthur and come stay with u guys for awhile?

I’ll make the coffee in the morning, and Arthur will teach Fenway the way of teh Shar-pei.

Pleeeeeeeese…………….

Every time I read one of these Two Minute Hates on a supposedly liberal blog, I find myself once again with an overpowering urge to vote for Nader.

If I vote for Obama, it will be despite your efforts to stomp down the left.

Even if I buy into the Democratic Party line about who’s at fault for the outcome of the 2000 election, I’d say you might want to think about how best to persuade people to vote for your candidate.

I’m not going to bother arguing with the Naderites, whose responses in this thread prove that they’re just as disconnected from reality as they were eight years ago.

I would like to point out, however, this curious little bit from Hirschhorn’s post: “[Obama] was simply too presumptuous and too smart for his own good.” Is “too presumptuous and too smart” the new code words for “uppity”?

I’m going to be in Phoenix in late September. Please have it cooled down by then. Your cooperation is appreciated.

Thank you.

Yeah, who let Nader-supporters into a thread about Nader? They always mess it up. Don’t they know that the bundle of sticks is only strong when all the sticks point the same way?

Ooof! Nicely done bit of snark!

Every time I read one of these Two Minute Hates on a supposedly liberal blog, I find myself once again with an overpowering urge to vote for Nader.

Then go vote for the man already. I’m pretty sure at this point no one other than Nader and yourself gives a flying rat’s ass who you vote for. All this serious hand-wringing about the travails of America and how Nader is the only one who can solve them makes me wonder, where the fuck is his organization? What has he done to put together a coalition of citizens to take back Washington from the evil two-party system?

He hasn’t done a goddamned thing other than popping out of his hole every four years to bemoan the ills of our political process. If you want people to take you seriously, don’t you think at this point you should introduce a serious platform into the debate?

I guess not. It’s just better to claim everyone who doesn’t agree with your point of view as beholden to a corrupt system that does nothing good for anyone, anywhere at anytime.

It’s getting tiresome, in fact it was awfully tiresome in 200, moreso in ‘04 and now, you’re getting treated to the ridicule you so richly deserve.

I’ll take your kicking and stomping as confirmation of my contention. The underside of your boot is not your best-looking side.

Fuck Nader.

If I’m going to make a protest vote I’m going to vote for Cynthia McKinney.

May happen. I’m not one of those hand-wringers writing post-mortems for Obama’s campaign. Not at all. McCain has to empty out his Presidential-campaign bank account this month and has been heavily outspending Obama in the battleground states.

And for all of that he’s ahead in a couple of polls?

Big fucking deal.

It’ll be another story in the fall…

I’m going to be in Phoenix in late September. Please have it cooled down by then. Your cooperation is appreciated.

Thank you.

~~~sigh~~~
You can haz Arthur’s foldaway bed. I suppose you’ll expect me to turn on the pool heater too….

For all the gnashing to teeth about the corrupt political process, can someone please acknowlege that with our media bought and fully paid for by the corporations that OWN this country, that any candidate espousing liberal ideals has a snowball’s chance in hell of winning? Be it Obama or Nader, if they yank that chain hard enough the media will destroy them. IF you call yourself a liberal and think the media is not biased for business and therefore for republicans, then you are delusional. And if you think most of the country gets it’s news from anywhere other than the dreaded MSM, then you’re officially a two-fer.

Obama running to the center is a sad admission of that, but I am willing to wait and see what he has to offer once the conventions firm everything up and there is no more ignoring what he has to say, and his meida campaign gets rolling. I live in a battleground state and for me to vote for Nader would be admitting that I think even the thin gruel of just maintaining the status quo of the Supremes won’t make a difference in my life or the future of those around me. I’m a hard core liberal, but I am a realist about what being hard core will get me.

How stupid…He’s almost older that McC; a has been of the worst sort. He has lost his voice is a meaningful way.

A – Fucking – men, brother. One of those posting moments where you say “Damn, I wish I would have written that.”

130 comments? Am I in the right place?

“I’m pretty sure at this point no one other than Nader and yourself gives a flying rat’s ass who you vote for. All this serious hand-wringing about the travails of America and how Nader is the only one who can solve them makes me wonder, where the fuck is his organization? What has he done to put together a coalition of citizens to take back Washington from the evil two-party system?”

Hey, barryr and Ralph will just throw magic pixie dust over DC and get everyone to follow them to the Promised Land.

Funny thing is,to pass their agenda, they’d need to, wait for it, compromise their principles with Republicans and Democrats. Oooops, there goes purity of vision.

Actually, I’m not too worried about Ralph. His time has come and gone. Let the Republicans throw their money into Ralph’s Potemkin campaign, less money spent on their races.

But I do enjoy a Republican operative posting as a committed Leftie. I always get a chuckle reading their posts.

Take heart…remember, George Bush ran as a compassionate conservative. He fooled a lot of moderates that bought his campaign schtick. I’m more than happy to give Barack whatever slack he needs to seal the deal.

in response to humboldtblue @ 124 and makeitstop

nader has a platform. he does what he can to get the word out there, too. makeitstop has it right however, our corporatocracy is not letting that message out. so you can say or think it is about his camp’s inability to rally their base or get their message out or whatever but face it, if he did all of that successfully he would win so he is not allowed to do that. my hope is that in another 20 years when some more of our corrupt elders who run things today die off, this country may be ready for a president who is truly elected by the people and works for the people, (instead of special interests.)

In case some of didn’t notice, I didn’t actually make any arguments for voting for Nader.

With all the straw and spittle in the air, I can see how you would miss that.

With all the straw and spittle in the air, I can see how you would miss that.

Understood. I just don’t think Nader is helping anymore. He pops up every four years, lists the glaring problems that exist in our political process and government, damns them all and then goes into hiding.

There isn’t a sensible person on either side of the aisle who hasn’t shaken their head in agreement with Nader on many issues, but at this point he’s just become a scold, and to be honest, at this point I want someone, anyone, who will end the disaster in Iraq, investigate the past 8 years and bring at least some modicum of sense back to our foreign policy.

So you think that if Gore had been inaugurated in 2001, we’d have been in Iraq?

Actually, I do. Because the Republicans would have drawn up an impeachment case against Gore right after 9/11, and Gore would have resigned (because the media would be blasting him 24/7 about how it would be the “honorable” thing to do, etc., and he really _would have_ been profoundly torn up about it). That would give us President Lieberman (brrr). And Pres. Lieberman would have gone to war in Iraq so fast it would leave a cloud of dust behind him, like a cartoon character.

Well, to answer you I’d have to start defending Nader, and no one wants that.

My point is that there are people who supposedly want the same ends who disagree about strategy. Is it really necessary or even constructive to pull out the Rove playbook and the Freeper coloring book to address this disagreement?

Nader might be a little arrogant and strange….but it’s not his fault that the Democrats can’t punch themselves out of a wet paper bag. If ‘our’ party keeps spouting ‘unity’, antiRussian drivel, namby pamby bipartisanship, we should just let the real conservatives rule instead of the wannabes of the New Democrats.

You think 9/11 would have happened if Gore had been in office? seriously? You don’t think OBL & Co rolled the dice based on Mr Misunderestimated being in the big chair? I know this thread is all about putting the hate on St Ralph, but without Bush fils in the white house, I don’t think 9/11 goes down. OBL may have tried something, perhaps an attack like the Cole, but I don’t know that he gets the same running room when people like Richard Clarke are being listened to and Condi Rice is not in the loop.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled Nader bashing.

NADER/PAUL 2008!!

I don’t think 9/11 goes down without Dick Cheney scheduling 5 military anti-terror drills on the same day of the attacks — an incredible co-incidence that effectively ran interference for the hijackers.

You think 9/11 would have happened if Gore had been in office? seriously? You don’t think OBL & Co rolled the dice based on Mr Misunderestimated being in the big chair?

In all candor, yes, I’ve always thought it would still have happened, because I have a hard time believing that bin Laden et al particularly care who the President is — except when they’re trash-talking. It takes so long to plan the stuff; I think they go when they think they’re ready, not when they think the US _isn’t_ ready.

But Cliff105’s point is a good one too.

Well you may get your chance to test that theory if Lieberschmuck gets to be McSame’s VP. What a craptastic combo.

that is a craptastic combo. blech!
i agree though that 9/11 would have happened anyway. and perhaps gore would have been bounced out of office for being the guy on whose watch it occurred. there is no question the republicans would have blamed him.