Rick Moran:

Rather than trying to change their opinion, they are making these people enemies for life.

Uh, Rick they’re already enemies for life, or they would not be giving money to the “yes on 8″ movement. What a maroon.

Between Gun-Counter Gomer and Moran the right is just full of the dimmest of bulbs, isn’t it?

I guess Rick is worried that all his neighbors will now know what a Maroon he is. Note to Rick: they already do.

They got involved when they wrote the check their Mormon Elders told them to write. It’s a public record, unlike a Temple Recommend, Sorry, but if you are going to play in the public square with the other citizens, you’ll have to take your medicine like the other citizens.

What the fuck? The Yes On Eight people were extorting money from people who’d contributed to the anti-8 campaign, saying otherwise they’d be forced to tell everybody they were queermos or whatever.

They can whine all they want about mean ol’ queers oppressing them, but God damn I’m sick of watching it. Your freedom of speech does *not* include freedom from the consequences. Deal with it.

Rick Moran is a moran.

With that said, Tbogg I have a favor to ask………

December 8th is 22 days away. 28 years since John Lennon was shot. Jesus, when you say it like that….. but I digress.

I have a new edit of my tribute to him. A song I wrote about 3 years ago and I found some great images on flicker and put it together with my new iMovie program on my new Mac. Gotta love that Mac, huh?

Take a look and if you could see your way clear, give me your unvarnished opinion of the piece.

Here’s the link.

you can get me at joeyess@gmail

thanks.

You don’t get to heaven above by trampling someone else’s heaven on earth.

Or as my mother used to say: Some people are so heavenly bound, they’re no earthly good.

That would be “ordinary person” in the same sense that Joe “the McCain shill plumber” was an ordinary person?

“The kind of person who contributes money to deny their fellow citizens their civil rights are not someday magically going to be part of the solution: they’re the problem. These are not people to be reasoned with; they’re ignorant, they’re haters and they’re bigots and the only thing people like that understand is power.”

period.

Take no prisoners.

Despite the hysterical bad faith of accusing people of a “pogrom” when they are simply taking note of voters names and interests (which every election campaign does in order to identify potential leaners and activists) there is another element to this. Considering, as someone pointed out up above, that the pro prop 8 people actually attempted to extort money from businesses that refused to donate to them we can well imagine that these lists are a two edged sword. Imagine all the people who *said* they donated to prop 8 but never did? How embarrassing for them that their name is *not* on the list? You can bet your boots that the first people to review the list of donors wasn’t pro gay activists but anti gay mormon church members using the list to identify people insufficiently anti gay.

aimai

Oh! My favorite of a quick perusal:

“Lisa Myler / Wedding Planner, Myler Weddings / American Fork, UT / $10,000“

Geeze. Oh. Pete.

::

If you enlist in the Culture Wars (e.g. writing a check), expect to receive fire.

And hiding behind their church and “faith” makes it all the more pathetic.

It’s fun to think of it as a joke played on them by the capricious, evil God they worship. At the very moment the economy is unraveling, he’s made them empty their own fucking pockets even more.

These caught my eye:

“Roman Catholic Bishop / Sacramento, CA / $1,000″

“Salvatore Cordileone / Clergy, Catholic Diocese Of San Diego / San Diego, CA / $2,000″

First of all, is that hard to figure out who the Bishop might be in Sacramento? To not put his name is pretty cowardly.

Second, what happened to “vow of poverty?” I’d be pretty pissed if my priest had that type of money to throw around because my donations were supporting him, or that he’d used $2k for *THIS* rather than, oh, I don’t know, a bonus for the church secretary or housekeeper, or helping to stock the food pantries that are running low all over the friggin’ nation. It’s this sort of turn the Catholic Church has made that made me thank them kindly for the social justice theory upbringing I received in the 70s, then went about my life “being good for goodness’ sake.”

Also of interest:
“Ken Campbell /Personnel Officer, City Of Long Beach / Mission Viejo, CA / $1,000″

How long until the lawsuits by those who weren’t interviewed or hired start in Long Beach?

I wonder how many of these anti-gay bigots are also anti-abortionists? And of those, I wonder how many approve of identifying and targeting physicians who perform abortions as part of their normal practice. And of those, I wonder how many cheered when family-planning clinics were bombed?

Since donating to political campaigns is a public affair, I fail to see why publishing lists of people who donated to one side is anything less than a perfectly acceptable response to said contributions. Hey, isn’t that what the wingnut “George Soros! BOO!” scare tactic is all about?

aimai @ 9 : Well, if they were asked to contribute less than $100, they won’t be on any lists. But yeah, if they were asked to contribute and then didn’t, OUCH. I can imagine a few people did that to try and avoid some unpleasantness in the home ward. Explaining why they finally didn’t cough up the money will be interesting, unless they have a good reason (like: uh, I lost my job).

A CA friend of mine who is Mormon (I’m ex-Mormon, as of last weekend, I decided “Not in my name you’re doing this” and sent in my resignation) but who won’t take sh*t from anyone told me that this Prop 8 thing was pushed in Mormon circles as the battle to end all battles–to protect marriage. These people were convinced that when they won the election, it’d be all over. They didn’t think about what would happen Nov. 5. He said that he talked to an “intelligent” Mormon coworker this past week. He pointed out to the coworker that this could just come up over and over again every two years until…and the coworker had the lights come on and realized that the demographic trends were against him. But he’d never thought that there’d be anything after the passage of Prop 8 and probably his co-religionists thought the same.

Second, what happened to “vow of poverty?”

Catholic priests are not required to take a vow of poverty. Generally speaking, Catholic nuns are.

Not only that, there’s no negotiating with people who think you’re siding with Satan. Think I’m kidding? I wish I was. Gary Lawrence, who is a big hotshot in Yes on 8, wrote an article for “Meridian Magazine” (an online and maybe print Mormon thing). In this article, he compared the fight over Prop 8 to the “war in heaven” before the beginning of time. Those of us who were against Prop 8 were like the one-third of the spirits who followed Lucifer [Satan] in his war against Heavenly Father.

http://www.meridianmagazine.co…..11war.html

No, there’s no negotiating with people who think you’re Satan’s minions.

Mirele,
What an interesting story. I’m not surprised. The first interviews with pro prop 8 people after the vote showed people who were really surprised by the blowback. Despite the end of the world language and the whole “gay agenda” thing I don’t think lots of those voters actually grasped how many gay people, and gay identified people, and friends of gay people, there are *all around them* and I think the notion of a backlash is just something they couldn’t conceive of, numerically. I’m also wondering what effect all those testimonials from former mormons are going to have. The mormon church has always thrown people out but relied on shame, issues of privacy, and former fellowship to keep people from telling their stories. This last push may have bust the dam for lapsarian stories and might end up having quite the snowball effect.

Myself, I’m hoping for a really honest and brutal public discussion of the role of religion in public life. I’d like to see religious intrusions into the public sphere beaten back with a two by four, not just a rolled up newspaper. I am hoping that something like gays *as a class* sue the shit out of the mormon and catholic churches, if they can be found to have the standing to do so, and I (like everyone here) want them to lose their tax exemption. I’d like some child of a married gay couple to sue the catholic and mormon churches for *forced divorce* of the parents.

Well, I think its all in the works. The historians have a theory called “revolution of rising expectations” which argues that its not the most downtrodden members of society that revolt against bad times or bad laws–its those who are on the rise who see things they expected to get taken away from them. To my mind that theory argues that gays and their supporters will be, in the end, more vigilant, forceful and organized than the religious right because for gays these setbacks are an insult to hopes for the future while to the anti-gay forces (the truth is) since they are already living in the kali yug and near the end times they aren’t actually expecting to win. Frankly, if we could give them a better way of siphoning money out of their willing dupes they’d probably abandon their anti gay rhetoric and switch to something else, like promoting tooth whiteners and salvation creams.

aimai

My cousin took a vow of poverty when he was ordained a Jesuit; the Franciscans who staffed the Catholic student center where I went to undergrad did as well. It isn’t just nuns, but I didn’t think it was just Jesuits and Franciscans either.

I am not a Catholic, but it is my understanding that all priests, monks, and nuns take vows of chastity, obedience, and poverty.

I’m sure this has been pointed out a million times already, but given the history of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, Mormons have some pair dictating anything to anybody on the subject of marriage.

I’m not a big fan of blacklists, myself, and I wish people on our side of the fence would stay away from the word. Boycotting businesses is fine by me, and since these donations are public records any individual who contributed is in no position to complain about being publicly ostracized. (And, since contributions like these are public records, the pro-8 folks are free to boycott anti-8 businesses and make their own lists of contributors, too.) But I certainly don’t endorse any discrimination in basic rights for anybody based on their political actions or contributions, which is historically what blacklisting has been all about.

I believe anyone in a monastic order takes a vow of poverty, among other things.

Remember when Arizona was the last holdout in recognizing Martin Luther King Day? Black NFL players said they would boycott the Super Bowl in Phoenix. Didn’t change anybody’s mind, it pissed off the bigoted holdouts, but it worked.

Isn’t there some scripture verse about sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind?

Okay, what’s with all the dental bigots? There’s an uncanny number of dentists on that list. Is pulling teeth some sort of Mormon hobby, or are these just the people in the same people in their industry who actually enjoy giving root canals?

I have a grand-uncle who is a priest, and I once asked him about the vow of poverty thing, because he was known to have a lot of money from donors great-grandma lined up for him before she died forty-odd years ago, so that his missionary work in Taiwan could continue.

He explained that they(priests, and I suppose monks/nuns/etc) aren’t allowed to own a business or work for a big salary. It doesn’t mean they can have money in a bank account, or set aside some of the donations for personal use.

I would also submit to you that a bishop, with greater duties than a priest, would have more money than a priest.

Finally, if the contributer was a Mormon bishop, that would explain a lot.
Mormon bishops are about as rare at ants at a picnic.

Appalling bigots are appalled to be called on their bigotry.

Dark Avenger – that “vow of poverty” has been pretty much a joke since at least the latter Middle Ages, at least for well placed members of the priesthood.

I stand by my support of my causes, none of which are hate-based. Perhaps the religious hypocrites who are listed need to rethink their theology.

OK, I can give a fairly authoritative response on the vow of poverty thing. Diocesan priests, which are those priests who are not members of a religious order such as the Jesuits, the Dominicans, the Redemptorists, or the Franciscans, are required to take vows of celibacy and obedience. Members of a religious order, be they priests, brothers, or sisters, are required to take a vow of poverty in addition to the first two.

I wonder if there is going to be any picketing outside of Mahoney’s, Our Lady of Ugliness, cathedral. Hate to see all this backlash just spent on the mormon church.

Preach it, Sister Wobbs! Spread the wealth, there is enough to go around to all the bigots.

can’t forget about Dobson’s place up there in Colorado Springs.

There’s an ice cream parlor chain in the Sacramento area which donated as both in the business name and the owners individually gave as well, and in an amount far more than the head of the theater group. Sounds like a good place to have a boycott.

It’s no wonder conservatives demonize Muslims: They’re both fighting for the same turf.

Moran is infuriating. In his costume as a “sensible conservative”, he writes calm prose that buys into every straw man, false equivalency, corrupted logical premise employed by wankers twisting facts to meet presuppositions.

I’ve tried leaving sensible disagreement comments, he never responds to anything but red meat attacks.

Fuck him.

FUCK HIM.

Nicely said, my friend.

I can answer the dentist question, being of the dental profession. It tends to be a fairly conservative profession, especially the older dentists so if you find a nice liberal dentist, tell all your friends so they can switch to that practice! I’m a liberal RDH, so it rather limits who I am willing to work for but I have standards, afterall.

A few other reasons: Utah graduates a LOT of dentists, ergo lots of Mormon dentists (and they tend to be politically active too, with money to back it) and they do spread beyond the Zion Curtain. Also, southern CA is home to the Pacific Dental Group, a corporate structure of over 70 offices (each individually named so you don’t realize it is corporate). If you go to their website and watch the videos of their annual meetings, there is always some God stuff in there somewhere and a generally conservative political vibe. These guys are big, and they have big bucks, plus they really know how to push product so their dentists and making the bucks as well. They seem to be concentrated in S. CA, but they are expanding into other states; reminds me of the Borg.

By the way, someone needs to tell Ricky boy that it is spelled M-O-R-O-N.

You’d think that these people would want their names publicized. After all, they saved our marriages from the threat posed by gayness and they managed to get religious beliefs incorporated into the law of the land. If that isn’t a double-plus-good twofer for the Christian Soldiers then I don’t know what is.

I’ve never understood why any business owner would want to step into the political arena in this manner. By doing so, they are fair game, imo. Why take the chance of alienating potential customers? And certainly don’t complain about the result if you do…

Perhaps you should have just gone to bed.

pretty much a joke

The same great-uncle once left a money clip in my grandfathers’ home we found the day after the weekly poker night, with 300$ in it.

I just wanted to get the story from the horses’ mouth, so to speak.

The interesting thing to me about this is that about five years ago there was a pro-life boycott of the contractors who were going to build the PP clinic in Austin and I spent a lot of keyboard time arguing on a pro-life blog that 1) this might not always be a good thing for conservatives; and 2) boycotts aren’t always legal, depending on jurisdiction. My views were not well received.

…and my wife keeps telling me “readin’ all them lefty blogs don’t teach me nuttin’.” Just wait ’til I woo her with all my new found knowledge on the unholy association between dentists & God. No, srsly. Thx much for, you know, actually answering the question — I thought I was just seeing things.

Bottom line; if you are embarrassed by your views, it’s time to rethink your position. I’m proud of where I stand on this issue, if you don’t want to do business with me because of that, run as far away from me as you can. And please tell me why, so I never try to contact you again.

As an aside, I take this issue very seriously. I have been married to my lovely wife for 31 years. Just 10 years before we were married, we would have been denied that right in as many as 17 states. The arguments they made then are EXACTLY the same as the ones they’re making now. I cannot imagine my life without my wife, and if others hadn’t stood up for my rights, I would have been denied that. I would be unworthy of that right should I ignore this fight.

My dentist is of the politically liberal persuasion, but since he practices in Western Mass., that makes sense.

When I lived in San Diego, my dentist was of the gay persuasion, so I’m assuming he’s batshit over this latest referendum.

And I’m totally on board with all the RDHs. I know many but few are politically active. Keep it up.

It’s no wonder conservatives demonize Muslims: They’re both fighting for the same turf.

Please tell me this is a failed joke.

make that joeyess@mac.com

So when they stick their noses in other people’s affairs, they forfeit the right to be considered just another “ordinary person”. They’re involved and they would be foolish to expect that those other people in whose private affairs they have meddled wouldn’t return the favor. As they say: you pays your money and you takes your chances.

That’s a remarkably stupid opinion to express unless someone decided this was the very last issue public donation lists would be available for.

Tell us, will the next democrat candidate not be supporting abortion rights or do we think that the kind of people who blow up clinics will have calmed down by the next election ?

Here in Utah (or Behind the Zion Curtain, as we always call it) this is really causing some angst. I agree with everyone who says that the supporters are really surprised that this has blown up in their faces. The day after this I wrote a comment to the Salt Lake Tribune saying that this was going to come back and bite the Mormons in their pasty white butts, and so it has, to my delight. A battle is raging in the comments in the local papers, including the indy paper, the Salt Lake City Weekly, over the boycotts and the reaction and on and on. The City Weekly just dumped Dan Savage’s column because Savage called for a boycott; even the gay community here (and yes, amazingly enough, there is a gay community in Salt Lake City) is divided. As for me, I think of Nelson on the Simpsons: Ha Ha! They (the elders and their bigoted supporters) are getting exactly what they deserve; even though it hurts the state I live in, it might mean loss of income or whatever, I fully support a boycott of Utah resorts and businesses. For waaaay too long the rich old white men down in the Tower of Power (as the worker bees there call the LDS Church Office Building) have had their way with this state, and I for one am glad to see them shaken up. So boycott away!

And BTW, I was on the river once with a big group of dentists; one of them told me that dentists have the highest suicide rate of any profession save for policemen.

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