Ross Douthat and John Schwenkler are just a couple of guys sitting around trying to hammer out some kind of compromise in the abortion wars (they’re playing for the "pro-life" side) and, although they hold losing hands, they would like the baby-killers to, in a manner of speaking, throw them a bone:
All of which is to say that it’s largely because of the pro-choice movement’s uncanny ability to use Roe as an all-purpose whipping stick that the abortion debate is as paralyzed as it presently is, and it’s only if folks like Freddie are willing to back down from that position that a (small-d) democratic middle ground on this issue can ever be reached. And so as happy as I would be to see a political movement emerge that genuinely represented the majority position on abortion, that’s never going to happen without considerable cooperation from the pro-choice Left. And somehow I don’t anticipate that happening any time soon.
Meanwhile, Schwenkler’s larger point is especially worth keeping in mind when confronted – as pro-lifers often are – with arguments like this one, from P.J. O’Rourke:
Take just one example of our unconserved tendency to poke our noses into other people’s business: abortion. Democracy–be it howsoever conservative–is a manifestation of the will of the people. We may argue with the people as a man may argue with his wife, but in the end we must submit to the fact of being married. Get a pro-life friend drunk to the truth-telling stage and ask him what happens if his 14-year-old gets knocked up. What if it’s rape? Some people truly have the courage of their convictions. I don’t know if I’m one of them. I might kill the baby. I will kill the boy.
If we take O’Rourke’s hypothetical on its own terms, it reads as an argument for, say, a legal regime that makes abortion available to women/girls below the age of consent – and I think I speak for many pro-lifers when I say that I would gladly entertain that sort of compromise, as part of a broader package of restrictions, if we were drawing up abortion law from scratch. But it’s not even close to an argument for the legal regime we have, in which no middle ground is even possible. And so long as Roe remains inviolate, those who urge pro-lifers to "compromise" without providing any legal ground on which a compromise could be forged are effectively telling them to just give up on their movement’s goals entirely.
Oddly, or maybe not so oddly, neither Douthat or Schwenkler mention the woo-word, as in "wo-man". Nobody likes to admit that they got beat up by a girl.
No, this is more of a jerk-off session wherein deep-thinking guys are, you know, really disappointed by the unfairness of it all because most people are basically against abortion… up until that unexpected unplanned moment when the little + sign shows up on the pee stick at which point the deeply-held theoretical gets run over by the oncoming baby bus. At this point, Ross and John would like to burst into the room and go over a few rules with supporting addenda that seem perfectly fair to them… which is yet one more good reason to lock the bathroom door.
To be fair, Ross is willing to "gladly entertain that sort of compromise" (some Douthat-sanctioned zygoticide in return for restrictions to be named later) which is very Penis-American of him but I can’t say that he’s playing from a position of strength.
Might I suggest a different sort of compromise:
Women will mind their own private baby gardens and Douthat and Schwenkler should mind their own fucking business.
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There’s your problem: Douthat and Schwenkler don’t sound like they have any fucking business. These are men who would expect to dictate the course of action if their daughter had an unplanned, unexpected pregnancy — and it wouldn’t even occur to them to ask what she wants to do. They see women as breeders, so they’d probably feel personally violated if someone caused problems with their “stock”.
and by “uter-us” Douthat means, “uter-me”.
I’m stuck on the bizarre phrase “if we take o’rourke’s hypothetical on its own terms”? What the fuck does that mean? ITs a hypothetical. It has a “face value” and a “shock value” and an allegorical meaning, a literal one and a figurative one. All of those are its own terms and really what is going on is that Douthat is aware that he loses on *all* of those terms.
I’m going to tend my baby garden. Elle faut, you know.
aimai
What the fuck does that mean?
It means that most of these twits think that if their arguments sound important and philosophical, then they are important and philosophical.
It’s a course at the Tacitus School of Internet Demagoguery.
And so as happy as I would be to see a political movement emerge that genuinely represented the majority position on abortion, that’s never going to happen without considerable cooperation from the pro-choice Left.
The Left, pro-choice or otherwise, has learned that the right defines “cooperation” as “surrender totally to our views.” The right has made a virtue of intransigence.
I’m sick of anti-choicers complaining about Roe being too extreme. Roe IS a compromise! It says that abortion is up to the woman before viability and up to the state after viability. What’s wrong with that compromise?
People who want all abortion banned are never going to be satisfied with a compromise. We could restrict legal abortion to 8 weeks or 6 weeks, and they’d still be calling it too extreme.
very Penis-American of him
That’s a keeper.
Dennis SGMM points up this line:
And so as happy as I would be to see a political movement emerge that genuinely represented the majority position on abortion, that’s never going to happen without considerable cooperation from the pro-choice Left.
And it is the funniest part of this laughable debate. See, the “majority position” *is* the leftist, pro choice position. That *is* our political movement that represents the majority position. A position on abortion isn’t a pity fuck that we throw the losers in the political debate so they can feel like winners. If sixty per cent of us want abortion on demand it isn’t incumbent on us to throw away our rights so that 40 percent won’t feel so bad.
aimai
How about some compromise on subsidized, quality pre-natal and pediatric care for those who can’t afford it? Subsidized day-care, maybe? A living wage? Rent assistance? Continuing education?
Guess those babies are just going to have to stand on their own two feet – eh boys?
These guys crack me up.
Schwenkler writes:
Yeah.
Got news for you, slick. The “pro-choice left” is the majority position on abortion.
If you want a compromise, it’s going to have to come from your side. Our side has won the debate.
OK, how about this as a compromise.
Men against abortion never have sex with a woman who isn’t totally committed to the anti-choice position. She will die before she will have an abortion. She will insist on giving birth to a fetus with a syndrome that will allow it only a brief and pain-filled life. The men against abortion will know this because they will never have sex with a woman until they have known her for a long, long time. They will have met her family, friends and business associates, thus learning a great deal more about her. They will have talked to her about their deepest feelings and shared their torment over the prospect of having their child aborted. On top of this they will always wear a condom unless they have agreed with their partner that they are ready to have a child.
Or they can all have vasectomies.
The abortion debate. Is that anything like the First World Debate (aka The Debate to End all Debates), or the Thirty Years Debate? These guys are obviously Master Debaters.
cowalker @11:
Fixed that for ya. Don’t want to give away the store in this compromise.
First of all, I really hate it how these clowns like to say that the govt should stay out of our business, but yet they are pro-life. It doesn’t get any more up-in-your-business than that.
Second, I would love to see the stats on abortion by only the people who can or might get one. That eliminates men, (I know I know–I’m not trying to say men aren’t/shouldn’t be a part of the decision-making process, or that it doesn’t affect them deeply–bear with me here) older women who are past the baby-making age, (What age is that? I don’t know–again, bear with me) and women who can’t (for whatever biological reason) have a baby. Eliminate all those from having a “say” and I bet the percentage in favor of choice is even higher than today–like 90%.
But of course, it isn’t like that–we have to go with the general majority–which includes opinions by people who aren’t and never will be directly affected by Roe v Wade. Case in point: Prop 8 in CA. One group’s rights revoked by another group.
The Pro-Choice position includes the Pro-Life position. It seems, in general, that the liberal position on any topic is that of inclusion and the conservative position is one of exclusion. Marriage? Conservatives say let’s make it a law that some can’t marry. Abortion? Conservatives say let’s make a it a law that you cannot do it.
I think the USA was built on inclusion and not exclusion.
Did it ever occur to these asshats that there is not and cannot be any “middle ground” with theocrats in a secular democracy? Did it ever occur to them that since they don’t actually have a uterus, they really do not have a voice in this discussion?
I recall the ceremony when W signed the bill on late term “partial birth” abortions. Standing behind him were a collection of jowly males in suits and ties. There were no actual uterus-owners in the picture.
Like Dennis said, these assholes want to force births but won’t guarantee a decent life. Motherfuckers.
And what fucking compromise? This is a woman’s constitutional entitlement.
STFU. You’ve already castrated the Fourth Amendment, for now.
Asshole taint lapping rightwing pigfuckers.
Hear, hear.
The issue of compromise is birth control. Give kids access to it, and teach them to use it. Abortion “problem” almost solved. Free condoms for all!
How come these wankers aren’t up in arms against divorce, which is actually in the bible as a serious sin? Tearing apart the union that God made and whatnot.
Invite them to attend church with me. I belong to the Church of MYODB (Bogg belongs to a fundamentalist offshoot, MYOFB).
a collection of jowly males
Yes. This. At the end of my street is a hospital and a doctor’s office building. Apparently the OB/GYNs, among the range of health care services they provide, offer abortions. That means that every day there are a half dozen retired white guys out there with giant, gory posters yelling at passers-by. Did I mention there is an elementary school right across the street? Every morning the kids getting off the buses are treated to a show. The only time there is ever a uterus amongst them is when they bring their wee grandchildren for a fun outing with Grampy. To be fair, the posters the kids carry are not nearly as big.
Lately, the message on the gory posters has to do with “black genocide.” Did I mention that most of the children at the elementary school across the street are black?
My neighbor sometimes yells back at them, which they LOVE. They LOVE feeling persecuted. I won’t even give them the satisfaction of looking in their direction.
Anyways, fuck them sideways with a crossbow. Ya know?
Isn’t that picture one of the Nightmare before Christmas collectibles?
O’Rourkes “hypothetical” read like snark to me. If those nitwits would get out of the doctors office and stop trying to domesticate women, we’d be a better people. Pompous assholes.
Fixed.
Is there – please – any way to get the Tbogg front page without all the “read more” links and just all the posts laid out so one can scroll down instead of clicking through for each and every item?
That means that every day there are a half dozen retired white guys out there with giant, gory posters yelling at passers-by. . . .
My neighbor sometimes yells back at them, which they LOVE. They LOVE feeling persecuted.
This is exactly why, when I was in college in the ’80s, my friends and I advocated forming the “Pro-Get-A-Life Movement,” which would have involved us sitting across the street from these sorts of weird delusional yahoos and holding up signs that said, “Get A Life.” But that would have involved effort . . .
wow. that’s mighty white of them to ask me to compromise on MY rights to make them feel better. yeah – I’ll jump right on that.
Some welcome news:
Some Abortion Foes Shifting Focus From Ban to Reduction
Geez. What a great argument that is, too. “Abortion can be illegal for all those nasty women sluts, whether they get raped or have cancer or whatever. But as soon as it affects my preteen daughter, I’m all for it, because then it’s about how I feel. Me!! It’s all about ME!!!!!”
What’s wrong with that compromise?
If anything, that it infringes way too much on the rights of women to their own damn bodies.
Dennis SGMM @ 5:
The Left, pro-choice or otherwise, has learned that the right defines “cooperation” as “surrender totally to our views.” The right has made a virtue of intransigence.
I think W showed he was a true conservative in his post-2004 (2006?) election response, something like “I’m happy to work with Congressional Democrats who share my views” — in the broader context and as reported, it almost sounded like a willingness to compromise.
Dennis SGMM @ 26:
Some welcome news Those obviously aren’t real conservatives.
And no, I’m not stalking you, I promise! ;>)=
Uter-us means uter-MINE to these guys.
LOL! I need all of the attention I can get. I’ll settle for being stalked.
They do not want compromise. If they ever get Roe off the books, the pill is next, followed by any form of contraception. It’s not about the “sanctity of life”. It is all about controlling a woman’s life.
Former senator Frist said he would like the Comstock Laws re-enacted. Barely noticed by the media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_laws
I am so stealing that.
Yeah, not so much, P.J. Unless I missed the forced-pregnancy gang’s news release calling for the prosecution of women who abort their pregnancies on murder charges.
…Wait, there’s a woman involved?
Those embryos will just have to “stand” on their own buds that develop into limbs in the fetal stage. Once born, they’ll have to buy and heat their own formula (if Ramama Inn, the faceless site of gestation, doesn’t breast-feed, is working two jobs as part of the welfare-to-work program, or isn’t raising them), taking care to sterilize the bottles; change their own diapers… Not funny, when you think of how little thought or concern these anti-choice zealots give to what happens after the blastocyte reaches maturity and is expelled from Ramama Inn…