Apparently those men don’t think they have any women they care about who would have the temerity to sully the family name by deciding that a pregnancy should be terminated.

I have news for them: your wives and sisters and daughters and mothers could someday (perhaps some have already) face that problem and they will never forgive your narrow-minded and ignorant posturing on this issue. Stop thinking you own them and their reproductive equipment. You don’t.

It’s just like Conrad (sorta) said; ” Kill them! Kill them all, the motherfucking retarded right wing motherfuckers!”

But remember, wanking itself is the greatest contraceptive of all time, and therefore right up there, although not, perhaps, institutionally, with Planned Parenthood. Of course, the Institution for Wanking (NRO) may have prevented more pregnancies than PP if you don’t require women to be involved to qualify.

aimai

Thanks for making the whole thing crystal clear, Tbogg. It really is that simple – the woman gets to decide for herself, involving whoever she pleases in the decision, and the rest of us have no say. It’s not pro-abortion, it’s pro-choice, and the fact that it is and should always be the woman’s choice is not negotiable.

I am old enough to have graduated from High School nearly ten years before Roe vs Wade. Girls from wealthy families would occasionally take a sudden vacation. Girls from less wealthy families were tramps who got knocked up and had to get married. The paternalistic douchebags who yearn for the repeal of Roe either didn’t live through those times or they’ve had their actual memories supplanted by episodes of “Happy Days.”

I wonder if the girls in either situation were treated as autonomous people who could make their own decisions? But your point is on the money. If the old boys had cared more about the people around them than appearances, maybe this wouldn’t matter. When this comes up, I still immediately recall this story in I Thought My Father Was God. Valuing the welfare of a blob of potential over that of a fully-formed and valued person who runs the real risk of dying in a horrible and painful ordeal is just sick

aimai wins teh intertubes w/ this.

If a wingnut wanks in the wilderness, does it really make a sound?

My idea of a plausible middle ground on the issue requires the overturning of Roe v. Wade, followed by a move toward a system in which abortion is legal but discouraged in, say, the first ten weeks of pregnancy, and basically illegal thereafter.

Hold on a second here. My knowledge of obstetrics is minimal, but doesn’t it take several weeks after fertilization for a woman’s body to produce the chemicals needed to register on a pregnancy test? Hell, the chemicals needed to stop menstruation don’t even kick in right away, leading to cases of pregnant women having their period anyway. So Douthat’s “middle ground” is cases where a woman can detect her pregnancy early and be close enough to a clinic to obtain the procedure. Is that about right?

I know this seems like it’s beside the point, but his compromise strikes me as ridiculous since it effectively bans abortion anyway. Where’d he come up with ten weeks, anyway? Unless he believes in the quickening (a concept which I’m fairly sure the Vatican dropped ages ago), what’s even the point?

I have a reasonable compromise for them. All the pro-Forced Pregnancy folks must permanently abstain from ever having sex and must leave the rest of us the fuck alone. Problem solved. Also results in a massive reduction in child abuse by not exposing any more children to indoctrination with this moronic bullshit.

How do you pronounce Douthat? Does it rhyme with asshat?

Wingnuts don’t wank in the wilderness. All that fresh air, all that flora and fauna…it’s a real turnoff for them.

…adding, it’s impossible to compromise with people whose worldview is “do what we say shall be the whole of the law”…

I want that key chain.

Yep–in much the same way as Mary Cheney gets to have her lesbian quasi-marriage while her dad’s party milks the gay marriage issue for all it’s worth. “Social conservatism” really translates to “stuff proles aren’t supposed to do.”

It’s almost pornographic, isn’t it? I find myself wondering if the fetus would spin around if you did a really tight donut on an icy parking lot.

The compromise is that a woman and her doctor and her conscience get to decide which path to take and everybody else gets the hell out of the way.

Brilliantly stated, sir!

I have news for them: your wives and sisters and daughters and mothers could someday (perhaps some have already) face that problem and they will never forgive your narrow-minded and ignorant posturing on this issue.

Unfortunately, the Hypocrisy Gene Hypothesis ensures that the “nice” (i.e., well-to-do conservative) women who get abortions all too frequently believe that their solution to a “problem pregnancy” has nothing in common with that of all those baby-murdering sluts occupying the other chairs in the Planned Parenthood waiting room. As with all other ethical questions, IOIYAR!

The correct pronunciation is Douche-Hat.

If a wingnut wanks in the wilderness, does it really make a sound?

Dunno, but it does make a bit of a mess …

Planned Parenthood provides care for women who can’t afford it, included HOW to get pregnant (if that’s what you want), but mostly the boring annual exam stuff. Planned Parenthood saved me from being 1 tiny step away from an official cervical cancer diagnosis at a time when I had no health insurance, and at a price I could afford given how poor the economy and I were then. I didn’t see any pro-life asshats helping out people in my situation; they were just yelling in front of the clinic and being generally obnoxious. I wonder how many young women were driven away from the clinic by that crap, and how many unplanned pregnancies happened because they were too scared to go in and get the birth control info/supplies they needed. But I suppose they deserved those unplanned pregnancies, having the temerity to be both poor and sexually active.

These bastards whould be denied sex at every opportunity, just so they can get an idea of what birth control is like if you can’t afford it and Planned Parenthood isn’t there to make it affordable. You know, like how real people live.

aimai, that was brilliant. I wonder what the contraceptive circumference of wanking is. Does one need direct contact, or is there an area effect?

“I have news for them: your wives and sisters and daughters and mothers could someday (perhaps some have already) face that problem and they will never forgive your narrow-minded and ignorant posturing on this issue.”

I know personally of one person who had an abortion in her late teens years and years ago, and whose now elderly Catholic parents still don’t know about it and never will. Why would she have told them and gotten the irrational hateful rant? They never got a chance to have a thoughtful discussion about alternatives with her because she believed she would just get the canned sermon. And she was right. Individuals who insist loudly on making this a black and white issue miss out on chances to influence abortion decisions every day.

But they don’t care. It’s not about their striving to improve life for everyone. It’s all about their emotional upset at the idea of women rejecting their fetuses, which is clearly impossible because women were born to be Mommies, and Mommies HAVE to love their fetuses from the moment the sperm pokes through the egg, so it’s the evil abortion provider who manipulates them into having abortions. That’s why they don’t want to put women in jail for getting abortions when they draft laws outlawing abortion. They want to believe that their mothers could never have come up with the idea of aborting THEM.

a system in which abortion is legal but discouraged

One of those deals wherein the “discouraging” would be performed by screeching men (& a few women) outside the doctor’s office or clinic, as they do now? Would there be exceptions in this law allowing an expectant woman to be whacked hard w/ a rolled up fetus poster? How about w/ a sign on a stick?

The same segment that wants to discourage abortion is largely dead set against Universal Health Care, pre-school programs, after school programs, and they’d take to the barricades if you mentioned subsidized daycare. In short,they are opposed to almost anything that would make it easier for a woman to keep her baby. They should just come clean and admit that for most of them it isn’t an issue of life but more about power, control and punishment.

That has GOT to be the most appalling POS I’ve seen in a long time…

They should just come clean and admit that for most of them it isn’t an issue of life but more about power, control and punishment.

Absolutely. For those people their enforced pregnancy stance is deeply entangled with their guilt and confusion about their own sexuality.

or anger about getting any.

rather, anger about not getting any.

The court has ruled against them, and they’ve lost the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives. So now it’s time to talk compromise? Reminds me of the stump of the Black Knight after Arthur was through with him: “All right, we’ll call it a draw.”

If we make abortion illegal won’t every miscarriage have to be investigated as a possible abortion? That should do wonders for the mental health of the women and families involved.

As i understand it, the accidental fall while riding horseback leading to miscarriage was also common in horseback riding areas

So this is reaching across the aisle to these guys. See, I think Obama is just a little naive on some things….

OR as an alternative, the forced pregnancy crowd should be required to spill their seed with NON-family members. Time to add a little chlorine to that gene pool.

IEA Oil Report has world oil reserves depleting at 7% per year.

The abortion issue will also be depleting in near future.

I think it’s lovely that Douthat and Saletan and Schwenkler and Freddie De Boer live in a world where they can spend endless hours wanking debating whether Planned Parenthood should be considered pro-life or not, but the rest of us live in the real world of real decisions with real consequences.

I think it’s lovely that Douthat, Saletan, Schwenkler and De Boer live in a world where every female would know if she was preganant by the 10th week of gestation. Their knowledge of female anatomy and physiology is truly appalling.

Row v.

Rove

I wonder if there was mental discombubulation with that?

Nope. They are only allowed to spill their seed upon the ground. Of course it is an abomination, but then so are poly blends, cheeseburgers, and bacon. Don’t see them giving any of those things up. Bottom line is that they are not allowed to breed. Ever. It is for the good of the species and in the interest of promoting sanity in the world.

Guess that explains the splotchy appearance of my lawn.

I’m sick of these friggin’ people trying to cram their belief down our throats.
If you’re against abortion, don’t have one !!!

Butt the fuck out!!!!

Works for me. Of course I, like all of these asshats, don’t really have to worry about that owing to the wrong kind of plumbing.

Can you imagine the uproar if they wanted to pass a law telling men what they could and could not do with their bodies? There would be rioting in the streets.

Would never even get out of committee.

A comedienne said on Real Time that if men could get pregnant, abortions would be a sacrament !

And mandatory.

Would never even get out of committee.

Or into it.

Can you imagine the uproar if they wanted to pass a law telling men what they could and could not do with their bodies?

They used to lock people up for homosexuality, does that count?

I’ve often thought it would have been better for everyone if evolution had positioned male genitalia somewhere difficult to reach, like between the shoulder blades. There would be fewer wars since men would be too busy devising ways to reach it.

LOL
You are really on your game tonight.

Unfortunately, they would also be to busy trying to figure that out to find food and eat. The resulting extinction would probably be celebrated by the rest of the animal kingdom.

Beat me to it, and with aplomb. Hat’s off, doctor.

This is a free country , and in a free country some people are gonna engage in activities that we don’t always approve of .But ,because it is free country we tolerate those things.
There are alot of activities I don’t exactly agree with ,but I don’t have a right to tell someone to stop because I don’t agree with what they’re doing

It is interesting that a ten week time limit is suggested since viability is the current standard and it is somewhere 22-28 weeks. I am not sure how that is much of a compromise.

I’m still trying to figure out the arrangement between the shoulder blades. Might make breeding a little difficult but hilarious to watch.

Either that or we’d have developed elbows that bent in the opposite direction.

True. I have absolutely no right to force anyone to stop paying attention to Brittney Spears (or Russ DoucheHat).

Can’t be much more ludicrous than the current arrangement.

Hi I’m home…..
Just wanted to check in and tell everyone that I survived the last series. I was in ICU for 7 out of the 8 days and it was really ruff but have two months to recover before we do this again.

I will be checking in occasionally as I recover. Elmore and I appreciate all everyone’s caring thoughts.

I’m trying to remember that old joke. The species died out from a complete lack of productivity, because one day the whole planet woke up and men had the breasts instead of women. All we did all day long was stare down our own shirts.

Um … you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours …

{{{{{{{ katymine & elmore }}}}}}}

Dunno where he got the ten weeks, but you’re right about the idea many pregnancies aren’t recognized until after someone misses two periods.
People with irregular menses may not detect a pregnancy until after the first trimester…..

The above is always fun to keep in mind when many of one’s work tools cause neural tube abnormalities in the first trimester.

fwiw, blood tests can detect a pregnancy after six t eight days….but the most at-risk sexually active teens are least likely to have access to medical care. Even the urine pregnancy tests (can take up to 2 weeks after missed period to detect pregnancy) can cost 20-30 dollars.

Hold on a second here. My knowledge of obstetrics is minimal, but doesn’t it take several weeks after fertilization for a woman’s body to produce the chemicals needed to register on a pregnancy test? Hell, the chemicals needed to stop menstruation don’t even kick in right away, leading to cases of pregnant women having their period anyway. So Douthat’s “middle ground” is cases where a woman can detect her pregnancy early and be close enough to a clinic to obtain the procedure. Is that about right?

I know this seems like it’s beside the point, but his compromise strikes me as ridiculous since it effectively bans abortion anyway. Where’d he come up with ten weeks, anyway?

Take good care of yourself and laugh a lot. Hope you feel great really soon.

Wow. Nice to hear your voice.
Welcome home, katymine.

22 weeks is pushing things quite a bit. My youngest grandson was born around 7 months (28 weeks) and barely made it through.

Oh, I don’t know. For some reason it makes me think of the Willendorf Venus.

If someone were, say, celebrating a pregnancy that could be a fun part…now I want one too!

(((((((katymine))))))

Yay!

Well, then there ought to be a law against it!!

Nice to hear from you again !!
Hope all goes well for you!!

katymine, I am thrilled to “see” you. Thanks so much for letting us know you are here. Rest, and hug Elmore

((((Katymine)))) ((((Elmore))))

7 ICU days! Ouch. That sounds really rough.

Wishing you a quick and esay recovery.

Glad to hear you’ve earned some r & r. Continuing to send good thoughts your way.

If these men don’t want an abortion, none of them should have one.

Otherwise, I can’t what entitles them to an opinion.

((((((katymine)))))))

it’s so good to hear from you! much love and light to you.

See my comment at 38 !!

I don’t know if this has been addressed in this post or thread, I have a hard time reading right now….. BUT…. here are some facts…

THE first test to check for fetal deformities is done between 13-15 weeks, a fetal alpha protein and if abnormal then there is a amniocentesis, if abnormalities are found then a refer to a genetic specialist is done. So when the parents are finally informed that the fetus has some genetic disorder it could be pushing 18-20 weeks.

These decisions are heart wrenching for the parents and families and the idea that someone would intrude into this very private and painful decisions is beyond me.

I supported a co-worker while his family made the decision for a third trimester abortion because the fetus was diagnosed with trisomy 23 where the baby would be profoundly deformed and would not live very long. They already had three healthy children and secure marriage.

Did you know that parents of children with deformities or die have a high rate of divorce. So these fine CHRISTIAN people decided to terminate and to this day I admire them for it.

Common sense doesn’t enter into this debate !!

For the wingnuts anyway !

how much wing coulda wingnut wank
ifa wingnut could wank wing?
He’d wank all the wing thata wingnut could
ifa wingnut could wank wing

wankers

Human breeding is already pretty hilarious to watch, especially if one isn’t directly engaged in the act.

http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/dit…../Fiala.htm

This what MrCE does at the Dittrick and hosts from abroad. We few are hopeful for all who suffer.

As I mentioned, my youngest grandson was born very premature and developed cerebral palsy as a result. He also had a lot of other problems owing to a lack of development. He was in and out of the hospital for 2-3 years with constant trips to the emergency room. After he was finally stabilized, my son and his wife realized that the fire was out and divorced. My grandson is fine, very active, and normal now and my son remarried and has a great marriage. The toll this took on them was phenomenal.

I my mind bringing a deformed fetus to full term would be a sin !!

See mine at 54.

(((katymine)))

Evening, all.
You have to admire the audacity of a strategy that says,”Give us everything we want, we’ll call it a compromise, and everyone wins.” Just to see if anyone would bite. As if we don’t know that the strategy is incremental, and as soon as they get a concession, they’ll be agitating for more. Any idea of compromise is thus out of the question.

BTW, “Calvinball” describes his proposal perfectly.

Actually, you have a better chance of winning at Calvinball.

http://www.case.edu/affil/skuy…..index.html

or even Dubyaball. How’s the weather, Doc?

Did you know that parents of children with deformities or die have a high rate of divorce.
I’m not surprised at all. Even parents of special ed kids have a higher divorce rate.
I started having kids late, the second two were at 35 and 42, so I had two amnios. Fortunately, both babies were fine. It’s a heart wrenching decision, to be sure. They like for the mother to have a pretty good idea even before the procedure of what she’d do if there were serious problems.
So many things to consider, including how it would affect other siblings, if any.
The bottom line is it’s the mother’s choice.
And another thing. If a woman is in tune with her body, she knows when she’s pregnant.

That’s it. Calvin grew up, became President, and made his own rules.

Sorry about that wingnut wank thing.

What bugs me about the very phrase “prolife” — it always strikes me that the person saying it is oblivious to the fact that a pregnant woman is also a live person, with every right to human dignity.

The idea is: human life begins at conception, therefore a pregnant woman has no right to abort a pregnancy.

So that means that because a woman has become pregnant she is compelled to risk her life — she has no choice — for the life of someone else.

Okay, fine. But if that’s the the way it’s going to be, it’s got to be that way for everyone.

If you see a bus about to run over someone in the street, and you don’t risk your life to save that person, then you are as morally corrupt and damned as a woman who refuses to carry a pregnancy to term.

If your cruise ship goes down and you swim in to shore without trying to save the people drowning around you — then you are as guilty as someone who didn’t care a pregnancy to term.

If you are aware that anyone’s life is in danger and you do nothing to stop it, even at the risk of your own health and well-being, then you are a criminal.

Because your life, you see, is not a consideration when someone else’s life is at stake.

My brains only hitting on three cylinders now
Time to call it quits
G’nite all !!

Colder than a Republican’s heart. Currently -8 and dropping. Never got above 0 today, but we are supposed to warm up into the double digits tomorrow. Supposed to get more snow later in the week. If it would ever warm up into the 20s, I would go cross country skiing.

These people are not pro-life – they are pro-birth. They don’t lift a finger to help women who have babies
as teenagers or later with no means of decent support.

They are only pro-life from conception to birth. After that they become objectively pro-death. Most of them support American wars of aggression and the death penalty.

Night, bb.

Hey DrDick,
Son Jack lives in Denver, and skiing was great there this past weekend. We are expecting a storm here in Cleveland tonight. Can’t wait!

I like the term “forced-pregnancy” — you are right. I guess I didn’t have enough sarcasm there, but I so agree, they are not pro life at all.

We have a lot of snow at lower elevations for the first time in years and it is perfect for skiing. Unfortunately we have been down around zero or below since the snow fell and that is just too damned cold for me.

Whenever I hear people advocate for the end of legal abortion, I remember a story my mom told me about before it was legal. She was a physician in the emergency room of a public hospital, and a married couple came in with something like six children. The woman was not technically ill — she was pregnant. She told my mom and some nurses there that if she carried this baby to term it would put her family on the street, they would no longer be able to scrape by. My mom, while feeling great compassion for this woman, told her about the law and that there was nothing she or anyone at the hospital could do. The couple left with their family.

The very next day, the woman was back in the emergency room, with a perforated uterus from trying to perform an abortion on herself. She died. My mom has never, ever gotten over that, and why would she? She was forced by a stupid, moralistic law to refuse medical care to a woman that would have saved her life and the life of her family.

The fact that these “pro-life” people will not accept is that women have *always* made this choice, always throughout history they have found one way or another to limit their fertility, whether through abortofascients or through infanticide or whatever (it may not be pretty but it’s true). The only result of outlawing abortion would be our mothers, sisters, daughters, cousins, and nieces dying from being forced to make that choice in a totally unsafe manner.

To see what it could be like, I recommend everyone watch 4 Months, 3 Weeks, 2 Days, a movie about an illegal abortion in Romania — heart-wrenching to say the least but powerful in its message.

If it would ever warm up into the 20s
Sorry, man. I can’t wrap my head around that. In the 20s, I’m hibernating.

Ok kids, this is about all I can do without going cross eyed…..Elmore is on the way home from the airport from Phili….. Have a nice night and try to check in off and on until I can see and think ….

‘night, katymine!

Sending Love & Light to you all !

Highs in the 20s and 30s are normal this time of year here. Not really too bad since we have almost zero humidity and no wind most of the time. 28 really does not feel as cold as 40 used to feel when I lived in Oklahoma or Chicago.

Night, katymine. Sleep well.

are these the same wankers who opposed the effort to expand the S-Chip program and make health care available to a larger number of lower-income children?

Undoubtedly. Most of these forced birth asshats are opposed to anything which would aid and protect the health and well being of women and children during and after pregnancy.

Ah, logic! That’s enough to explode a fundamentalist’s head at your beck and call.

they are probably also opposed to adoption by gays and lesbians, which results in more needy children remaining in inadequate foster care conditions.

Yes, but life is sacred!

Time for me to head out. Have to take a friend to the doctor early tomorrow. He must face the doom of all men over 50. Take care all.

Here’s the compromise, ‘hat: you don’t have to shut the fuck up, but we don’t have to give a flying fuck what you say.

Saletan had a proposal similar to this. The gist was: “OK, you guys give up Roe v. Wade now, and we’ll write some new laws later.” One blogger pointed out that this is the equivalent of saying “OK, you have a house, give it to me and I’ll try to find a nice cardboard box for you to stay in.”

You have to love these people and their fake sincerity. Yeah, I’m sure you’re so concerned about the future of the pro-choice movement, guys.

22 weeks is pushing things quite a bit. My youngest grandson was born around 7 months (28 weeks) and barely made it through.

Latest data I remember, infants delivered prior to 26 weeks have a 75% percent rate of permanent disability, ranging from “mild” intellectual, sensory & motor problems on up. And, of course, our glorious American healthcare system will bankrupt the “lucky” parent(s) of a preemie who ends up blind, deaf, spastic, tube-fed, voiding into a bag, and with a mental capacity rated as “less than the average 6-month-old”. There was an article in the Boston Globe recently mentioning that some obstreticians have started debating whether “rescuing” fetuses so underdeveloped should be a priority, if “surviving” means 30 or 40 years as, well, Teri Shiavo. But, hey — those Very Special Babies will never lie, cheat, have unsanctioned sex (at least by their own choice), or vote for Barak Obama!

Once again, I fear the powers that be will influence Obama.

Messrs. Clinton and Bush took action on those two issues in the opening days of their administrations. It isn’t clear whether Mr. Obama will follow suit. He has suggested that he wants to find middle ground on abortion-related issues, and some Democrats worry about the politics of making abortion policy one of his opening moves. (WHICH Democrats???)
……….

While many abortion-rights supporters would like to see Congress pass FOCA, their advocates in Washington have concluded that there aren’t enough votes in Congress and that it isn’t politically smart to push such a divisive measure. A coalition of nearly 60 liberal and women’s groups submitted a list of 15 requests for action in the Obama administration’s first 100 days, and FOCA isn’t on the list.
http://online.wsj.com/article/…..12197.html

I’m beginning to wonder if we going to get ANYTHING out of this sweet talkin’ muhta?
He sure wanted wimmin to VOTE for him tho, didn’t he? Now it sounds like he’s all too willing to throw us under the bus.

Here’s a middle ground compromise: Anyone who is pro-choice may have an abortion. Anyone who is anti-choice may not. (This should cut the number roughly in half.)

See how easy that was? Now we can all agree to focus our time on more important things than embryos, like children.

Saletan had a proposal similar to this. The gist was: “OK, you guys give up Roe v. Wade now, and we’ll write some new laws later.”

Haha, that’s like that infomercial where they offer to send you a postage paid envelope. Then you just enclose your unused gold jewelry and mail it to them and they’ll mail you a check for a fair value. They promise!