“They’re spending millions of dollars to kill health insurance reform, just like they’ve done so many times before.

Yeah, right.

And if they have “meelions of dollars,” it’s because of the huge profits they make AND the ginormous capital gains they’re reaping off the big run-up in their share prices that occurs every time the bill gets closer to passage.

Is there ANY part of this bill the insurance companies oppose?

Tx. Very well said. Nothing to add. Motherfuckers.

The insurances companies get millions from new members and their premiums and the government provides little help.

Way to stand tough.

Millions more people will get health care. That’s not a small thing. I agree the subsidies aren’t as high as they should be, and the cost controls aren’t as good as we need. I also know this chance won’t come again in our lifetime.

As someone who nearly died as a kid because we didn’t have healthcare, I can’t pass on this chance to expand coverage. I’ll work for bettering it after it’s here.

Other than connecting the Treasury directly to the insurance companies, further reducing a woman’s right to choose (They “compromised” with Ben Nelson), forcing people who may not be able to afford it into the arms of the insurance companies under threat of being fined, eliminating anything that might in any way force insurers to compete, and killing everything that could cause them to reduce costs, this bill is…, is…, is still a piece of shit. The Obama fanbois continue to click their Ruby Slippers together in the belief that the Reconciliation Fairy will turn this into a more progressive bill while the glass-half-full types fail to see that a glass half full of shit is still a glass of shit.
Rahm and Obama are into full triangulation mode and it’s fuck the liberals because they’ll vote for us anyway. But I won’t.

And the RebuttLickens still don’t like it?

The legislation would set up an elaborate accounting procedure to prevent the use of any government funds to finance abortions covered by private insurance sold on the new online exchanges.

This is MarkAssBitch Care (aka LieberCare) and it is wrong, wrong,wrong. Let alone unconstitutional…

The Nebraska lawmaker and other Democrats had also objected to a plan to create a new government-run program, or public option, to compete with private insurers such as Hartford, Connecticut-based Aetna Inc. By eliminating that provision from the bill, Reid was able to win over holdouts including Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman, an independent who caucuses with the Democrats.

Oh Wait! Everything’s cool! Botox is back in the bill!

The bill also drops plans for a levy on cosmetic surgery, proposing instead a 10 percent tax on indoor tanning booths.

Plastic surgeons joined forces with companies led by Allergan Inc., maker of the wrinkle smoother Botox as well as silicone breast implants, to fight the proposed fee. The 5 percent “Bo-tax,” as it was jokingly dubbed, was projected by Senate Democrats to raise $6 billion over 10 years.

Well, there you have it… Hey, everybody is just CraaaZZy for Liebercare MarkAssBitch Care. …Another Rahm-Joe ram job.

The only thing left to hope for is that they cover mass insanity.

Three more years of this kind of date-rape is reeaally going to cement loyalty to our esteemed political leadership.

NOT!

Oh and… “Keep the baby, Faith”

I couldn’t agree with you more! With regard to that mandate,I have difficulty dealing with the fact that what that is in reality is Obama’s promise to give our tax dollars directly to the insurance company under the banner of “subsidies for those who can’t afford to pay for health care.” I keep hearing Rahm and Obama saying, “Hey guys, we just got this dough from the public. Quick, take your cut. By the way, congrats on your humongous bonuses–they’re alot bigger than last year, right? That’s great! Now you’re gonna support us in 2010 and 2012, right? AND, you’re holding jobs for us when we leave office, right? Aw, gee, thanks guys. We love ya!” Now, back to telling the people what great things we did for them (STOP THAT LAUGHING RAHM, THE PEOPLE MIGHT HEAR YOU!)

person 1597, love your response!!!!!!!!!!!

Shorter Barack:

“Hey Suckahs… wasn’t my milkshake they’re drinking. Eat shit and die…”

At the risk of being stoned as a running dog, submissive Obama lackey; exactly what leverage does every one seem to think Obama had over the likes of the Lieberman collaborators? Isn’t it least possible that the administration saw this outcome as inevitable, and wanted to cut to the chase? I don’t think I’ve heard any persuasive theories on Obama’s motivation for sabotaging a good, or even slightly better bill. Seriously, other than the all powerful bully pulpit, political will and grace combined with a 110 % effort, what leverage? And please, no apples and oranges FDR and LBJ fantasies.

I agree with Peorgie. The bill sucks but I don’t really know how you can blame any one person. 40+ senators are sucking ass. Lieberman is one, but there are aplentyothers. Obama maybe coulda done more, but he never really acted to indicate that he would. He’s a centrist. The center sucks.

Millions more people will get health care.

TBogg, since you’re a member of the FDL “inner circle,” could you please ask Marcy to put up a nice, concise refutation of this crap line? Stick it in a Seminal diary, and thereafter we can just cut-n-paste,

i just don’t have the energy to write a response to this Obamabot crap.

Maybe a little leadership would have been nice. Perhaps calling out the liars on their bullshit instead of rolling over and asking for a belly rub. The fact is, he did nothing – and say what you will about what happened behind closed doors, the evidence would show that if indeed he did anything, he got worked.

He constantly harped on bi-partisanship when anyone with a pulse knows there is no way a single vote from the Republicans was ever in play. He should have given them a chance to come to the table, and when they acted like the petulant children they are, said “fuck ‘em” and gone on without them.

He has the most powerful leadership position in the world, and he displayed no leadership.

Don’t misunderstand me, I hate what happened to the bill but my questions still stand, what leverage and what motivation? Obama did call out the liars and pitched the public option in his SOTU address but why flog a dead horse if it’s meaningless? Like you, I don’t know what went on behind closed doors, but I think he was managing expectations with the low key approach, he knew this was the best they were going to get with this Congress. Remember Olympia Snowe saying she’d support it with a trigger for the public option? Now there’s not even a trigger and today Snowe announced she could support it because it’s moving to fast! Killing the bill might feel principled but I believe that in the end, it would it would be meaningless.

Yes, “leadership” and “calling out the liars on their bullshit” would have totally won over Lieberman, Snowe, Collins, the Nelsons, as well as six other Republicans. In fact, the “calling out bullshit” stuff would have convinced the Senate to pass a single-player bill. I cannot believe there was no bullshit calling on Obama’s part.

Frankly, I’m disappointed that so many people on the left, especially those who bragged about the “reality based community” that we inhabited in contrast to the “create our own reality” delusions of the Republicans, folded at the first whiff of compromise. It’s not a good bill. It is a good foundation for a better health-care system, if we keep pushing our elected reps to improve it. Liberals have never been good about playing the long game, but we better goddamn well learn how to play it because the Repubs are masters at it, and you better believe they’re going to use our base discontentment to roll us in ’10 and ’12. Remember the lessons of Nader!

Obama got precisely the health care “reform” he wanted. He provided just the amount of leadership necessary to serve the moneyed interests.

It was one big charade, staged for the benefit of the few suckers left who actually think they’re still entitled to some sort of representation.

The Democrats and Republicans form the perfect team for thwarting genuinely progessive reform. And they know it.

Wow, this is the first time anyone on this site has called me names before. Feels horrible, but I guess that’s what you intended. I won’t try to discuss this here again.

Same question, what leverage does Obama have over the Lieberschmucks and what’s his motivation for wanting a crappy bill? Is he really just a high dollar pimp that doesn’t care about his legacy or is he a neocon dupe and self loathing negro?

You know, insulting people is not going to endear them to your cause.

In fact, it’s going to make them more likely to bust you in the nose.

Think about that.

At this point, I don’t give a shit that both Krugman and Berbnie Sanders are supporting this bill. They’re wrong. It’s like dealing with the homeless by telling ‘em to buy houses and then raising their taxes when they can’t. Or telling the destitute they have to buy food or pay higher taxes. All that’s been said elsewhere, clearly and at greater length. and it’s right. tbogg said the rest. If you don’t understand this, ur kinda dumb or a troll. “Leverage”? It’s called a fucking veto.

And why should I listen to you if you’re going to say if I don’t I’m “kinda dumb or a troll”?

Seriously, it’s crap like that pisses me off. “Think like I think or you’re an idiot”? Are you for real?

I guess I am kind of dumb, I didn’t realize the President could veto non-existent legislation. I will just have to reevaluate all my thinking about the process that led up to this point, that is, after all, what I was responding to. Okay, how exactly does vetoing nothing get you to the bill you wanted? No? okay, so is troll your version of get a brain, moran, or is it your, if you don’t already know I’m not gonna tell ya, cheese-dick?

Please do not insult Al Qaeda like that. They at least have a pretense of serving some higher cause than obscene personal profit.

And so this is Christmas, and what have we done?

-John Lennon

He has the most powerful leadership position in the world, and he displayed no leadership.

odd. i seem to remember him giving a bunch of high-profile speeches on the topic, in addition to it being a staple of all his town-hall style talks. maybe i’m thinking of some other president.

Aw shucks…

And jnfr @17 — You know you can quit like that. You’re hooked baby.

…maybe i’m thinking of some other president

You are. Any right-wing representative of the ideology can stand up and yell “Liar”, or make whatever bizarre statement they want, but the left has to use diplomacy.

Bullshit.

Reagan, Bush (I/II), and all their water-bearers didn’t give a rats ass about what anyone else thought and they were able to push through legislation that disassembled this nation on their own – with less control of the legislature than Obama now has!

There are procedures that the Republicans were only too happy to utilize that could have obviated all of these problems with “bipartisanship”. Patting me on the head and saying “you just don’t understand” is defeatist (and completely incorrect). You’re either in or out and if you’re out, fine, get out of the way.

The American people want this done for THEIR benefit. Anyone who does not understand, accept, support and work for that IS IN THE WAY.

Obama could have started the process by stating loud and clear that he wanted single-payer UHC and then negotiated down from there. Any three-year-old knows that if you want an ice cream cone you start by demanding a puppy and then “settle” for the ice cream. Obama’s leadership during the critical Summer recess was non-existent. While the Republicans took advantage of every opportunity to rail against health care reform, Obama and his surrogates remained largely silent. Lieberman, et al, would have been a lot less stroppy had Obama and his team taken the time and trouble to get the public on the side of a robust bill. The result was a bill that was pleasing to the insurers save for one or two particulars. When the passage of even that became dubious the Dems found themselves giving up those particulars and backpedaling on women’s rights as well. We were never going to get single-payer UHC, but we sure as hell could have come away with more than we did.

The Republicans knew full well, and even said so, that a strong health care bill would result in decades of Democratic ascendancy – just as Social Security did. That the stakes were that high and Team Obama did such an uninspiring job despite speaks volumes about either their intentions or their abilities. Those who say that we can’t afford to waste this once in a lifetime opportunity are correct. It’s just too bad Obama did. Anyway who clings to the hope that this bill will be improved over time ignores the fact that the same people who engineered this piece of crap will be going against the same people who opposed it in the first place.

So you want us to behave like them? Run anybody over who shows even a micron of disagreement for your pie-in-the-sky fantasies?

You can try it. But you try to run me down and I will knock you flatter than a pancake, because just as you don’t like being treated like a child I don’t like being told that I’m in the way because I’m being a realist.

We weren’t going to get a robust public option. We weren’t going to get single payer. Anyone in authority who says otherwise is crazier than an outhouse rat because even with reconciliation THE VOTES WEREN’T THERE.

So we kill this bill and it’ll be 20 years before we try again, if ever.

I am a social psychologist, and have in my scholarly career seen many with the attitudes you display. The idea that rising above the misdeeds of your philosophical opponents will gain you the upper hand is utterly ridiculous. If you have strong moral beliefs, stand on them and take ACTION. When those who are working to oppress you use strong tactics, fight back with vigor!

Be bold. There should be a small group of people in the White House whose job it is to take EVERY instance of a public lie and debunk it. Every day, hold press conferences listing the lies, the liars and the corrections. Be specific “at 10:34 Eastern, on Fox News, Glenn Beck said… …that was a lie. Here’s the truth.

There is one proviso; for this to work, you have to be truthful and right. As Al Franken said, “you’re permitted to have your own opinion, but not your own set of facts”. We are not getting opinion from the right, we’re getting lies – and that they’re going unchallenged is unacceptable.

In anticipation of your response; yes, this means getting tough and taking on a very powerful media. Yup. So? That’s why they’re getting paid. And maybe we’ll lose. Maybe, but how will we tell the difference?

…one other thing. If this is going to be debated publicly, be prepared to concede to points when you’re wrong. This isn’t ideology, it’s health care. If the opposition is correct in their facts, say so, then adapt the legislation to reflect that. Where philosophical positions are at odds, go with what the American people want.

“Obama could have started the process by stating loud and clear that he wanted single-payer UHC and then negotiated down from there”

I’ll ask again, exactly how would that have affected Lieberhosen & Company?
I’m begging you here, what would that have changed? Nothing and Obama knew that going in and he managed expectations.. Ant three year old knows you don’t let your ego write checks that you know you can’t cash. You got rolled by unrealistic expectations. Do you somehow actually believe that FDR would have passed social security with this congress?

What you suggest would require the listeners to be receptive and rational actors.

If anything, the last 6 months have shown that the majority of the people are neither. And then coming along and berating them for not being receptive or rational doesn’t do the trick. It just pushes them further into their entrenched positions.

Are you serious? You presuppose your dealing with rational opponents, acting with some semblance of good faith. How’s the global warming debate going? Not enough moral conviction and vigor? Perhaps you’ll take a stab at the leverage and motivation question I began with.

You are wrong, the majority are both rational and receptive – they just don’t have any source of rational information. And that is only because, short of the internet, nobody is trying. You are confusing the loud, obnoxious minority with the majority. Remember the election? THAT was a majority, and it still exists – or at least, it would if there was something to grasp onto.

Lieberman is irrelevant. We have never needed him, so why try? It would have been nice to get buy-in from the right, but why should they? They know they’re going to win. If there was a chance that they might lose this debate, they’d somehow make it their idea.

Not for a moment do I think that we are dealing with rational opponents. So what? They are a minority. Give them their voice, ridicule them, then cast them onto the pile of irrelevance. Do you think that just because they’re nuts we should allow them to run roughshod?

(BTW, the off-handed reference to a large group as “nuts” by a social psychologist isn’t lost on me.)

“Lieberman is irrelevant. We have never needed him, so why try?”

Because even if you ostracize Lieberman there’s still Nelson, Bayh, Lincoln, Landrieu, Baucus, Webb, Tester, and Begich to deal with – all are conservative Democratic Senators in states that are either marginal or leaning Republican, and none are going to be receptive to listening if you start busting skulls when they’re more worried about keeping their jobs.

That’s 51, and with Byrd iffy health-wise now we’re down to 50 assuming you can hold them together long enoug to do anything.

One last word on the subject of controlling the message; the idea that “a lie, if repeated often enough, becomes the truth” is incorrect. The experiment from which the theory of cognitive dissonance is derived placed a number of people in situations where they were told repeatedly that things they knew to be untrue where true. In order to be part of the “in group”, they began to repeat the lies – even though they knew that they remained lies. In a follow up study, it was found that this behavior could be replicated reliably, but if there was anyone supporting the truth, the subject of the experiment would not accept the lie.

The United States is this study writ large.

Again, we’re back to leadership.

It’l be 20 years before we get another chance to chug down a half full glass of shit.??

Why so long.?

Minority? I was talking about the 5 Dem Senators!

“Again, we’re back to leadership.”

And again we’re back to vigor, commitment and magic thinking that would have led us to the Waterloo and an empty meaningless statement. And again, real leverage, Obama’s motivation for to have wanted this bill all along? What, is Obama just lazy, or is he a low rent pimp?

So I hear the IRS is going to be collecting the rather large fines for choosing not to buy …
If so ..how.?

Are they going to garnish wages like they do for child support.? What if your self employed..? Garnish your bank account..? Take your property .?

Here in the deep south, the red neck working poor are already as pissed off as I have ever seen them (thanks Rush)…Can you you imagine the level of rage if the IRS starts breathing down their necks over this…

KO has already said he won’t buy (the half full glass of shit)..and ” What are you going to do ..through me in jail.?”

Reread my response.

FWIW, I never called you any “names.”

I said your “content” was crap, but no personal insults.

I guess that should have been “throw”

Right. I know blogs and the internets make us all think that we’re brilliant political strategists, but there’s absolutely no guarantee that starting negotiations with single-payer would have resulted in a better bill. It’s easy to game out an opposite scenario: Conservative and centrist Democrats refuse to come to the table at all, Tea Party complaints about socialism are given even more weight by a too-credulous media, Obama’s popularity craters in August and September as an uninformed public turn against single-payer. In October, Obama supports the public option as a compromise position, and liberals call him a sellout for giving in on single payer. (Do not try to pretend that the last scenario wouldn’t have happened. See my previous comment about liberals not playing the long game.) After all this, the best bill we could get–assuming the whole process hadn’t collapsed–is the one we have now.

And thats what disappoints me about people like Kos who now oppose the bill: I thought they had a better sense of how our cussed-up government functioned, but in the end it turns out they actually do think that Obama’s a conservative centrist because he didn’t use his Magic Liberal Pixie Dust on Lieberman. If the liberal base wants to do something concrete in response to the disappointing health-care bill, instead of sitting out 2010, we should start figuring out how to change the filibuster or otherwise work up popular support for changing the procedural rules in the Senate. That’s where the bill went bad, and it’s naive and short-sighted to blame Obama for it.

Thom Hartmann has Senator Sanders on nearly every Friday on “The Thom Hartmann Show”. The one hour segment is called Brunch With Bernie. They’ve been doing it for 5+ years. Probably the longest “townhall” ever and you can call in and question Senator Sanders without any screening.

Here’s the link to podcasts and live-streaming

JD3M, if you did not listen to Senator Sanders this past Friday explaining his position then go fuck yourself and eat shit, because Bernie knows more about how this fucking works than you could ever imagine knowing anything about anything. JD3M Thy Name Is FuckTard! Oh, and eat shit!

To back up Spotts here, it’s worth keeping in mind that for all the flak Obama and Reid got, there were more Senators than Nelson and Lieberman–Democrats from red states in particular–who could have cussed this thing up completely. That Tester, Webb, even Landrieu and Lincoln more or less stood with the caucus without much drama suggests to me that there was pretty strong leadership behind the bill.

Obama will not be trusted in anything he says again. He may fight that concept mentally, but Tiger Woods has a better chance of reclaiming his honor than does Barack Obama.

Barack’s Bull is seriously wounded in less than a yesr.

Strong leadership behind a piece of shit. Gee. Why am I not impressed.

I am seriously sick about this piece of shit bill. What happened to those who said they wouldn’t vote for it. What else did they take out that we don’t know about yet in order for liarman to endorse it. I thought bernie sanders said he would not vote for this crap. This is so going to fuck my family because my child has a preexisting condition that has to be treated or he will die. What will I do when they price his insurance so high that I can no longer afford it? I fucking hate Obama with the flames of ten billion hot suns.

If this Health Scam passes, the Democrats will be mortally wounded. Forcing Americans to buy private insurance, or some non-profit facade of private insurance, will be this century’s Taxation Without Representation War Cry.
Without serious cost controls, Americans will hate the Democrats more every time they write a larger and larger monthly check.

I’m not a brilliant political strategist. While you’re correct in stating that there’s no guarantee that starting with single-payer would have resulted in a better outcome there’s also no guarantee that it wouldn’t have. I very much doubt that conservative and centrist Democrats (Which is to say most of them) would have refused to come to the table. They would have if only to posture and harrumph.
Obama’s popularity is cratering already. He is, at this point in his presidency, less popular than G.W. Bush was at the same juncture. Obama set himself up for this by representing himself as a different, fresh type of politician to a populace that was fed up with most politicians. He was fresh, but he was no different from any other triangulating, corporatist, Dem pol. By setting such high expectations for change and then delivering so little of it he is managing to disenchant numbers of those people who worked the hardest for him. This does not bode well for the Democrats’ hopes in the 2010 mid-terms. Lamentably, Obama will be unfazed by the erosion of the Democratic majorities because he will then be able to run against Congress in 2012. God knows that he won’t be able to run on his record.

we should start figuring out how to change the filibuster or otherwise work up popular support for changing the procedural rules in the Senate. That’s where the bill went bad, and it’s naive and short-sighted to blame Obama for it.

Then it was naive and short-sighted of Obama not to plan for it. And further, naive and short-sighted of him to promise something that could never get past the Senate. Unless he wanted the POS bill he’s gonna get. In that case, yes, we are the naive ones.

But I digress…

Looking at the photo of a younger Obama, I can’t help but wonder what the reaction in the country would be if the president allowed his hair to grow out into a full blown afro!!!

Can you imagine Fox News and talk radio tackling that?

Would it make him more socialist? black? radical?

According to people who favor this bill, it prohibits exclusions for pre-existing conditions for children as of *next year*. You might want to check into some Dayen and Walker diaries today, over at the FDL Action venue.

Tiger Woods has a better chance of reclaiming his honor than does Barack Obama.

Oh, snap!

Obama campaigned on public option, no recission, and pharma reimportation and cost controls. He’s betrayed all three. No one will believe him again; certainly not in 2012.

Sorry you’re not impressed, but really no one gives a damn. My point is, considering how dysfunctional the senate is, we’re lucky to get even this bill passed. And if you think it’s a “piece of shit” that won’t do anything positive for ordinary Americans–what do you plan to do about it?

I agree. I don’t think I can go back from my visceral loathing of Obama at this point. I hate phonies and hypocrites and liars more than outright opposition.

Look at the Cantwell thread below and how he had Rahm ruin Byron Dorgan’s re-importation bill….all at the behest of Big Pharma. Obama is a puke and I feel so duped.

Obama, I loathe you with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns. Fuck you, bucko. And, while you are at it, stop arrogantly threatening GREAT statesmen like Peter DeFazio. The Hill newspaper has an article about an obnoxious arrogant odious Obama threatening DeFazio. If I was Peter DeFazio, I would have told this phony to fuck off.

I’m so sorry that your family is in that position. It sucks, to understate. My son has a fairly serious case of asthma, so I can relate somewhat.

So please don’t even try to tell me you took on the insurance companies and won

And in order to prove just how enraged the health care industrial complex is at Obama’s pummeling they will triple their campaign contributions in 2012.

You know, payback time against him and all the other socialist Democrats.

Watch the Moyers show from this week. It’s on the PBS site. They have a great explanation as to why Obama would do this and you don’t have to think Obama is evil to see how it all makes sense.

While I’m not a big believer in pixie dust, it is possible you may have misconstrued the problem. Bush and Rove, as much as we may dislike them, pushed an agenda that was completely lacking in a public mandate via the bully pulpit. They did this by keeping their eyes on the prize. More recently the silly liberals thought they were voting for a liberal leader instead of a rancher that was all hat and no cattle. What we have been stuck with is is an an administration that claims victory in the face of defeat. People that claim that by accomplishing nothing have instead solved world hunger.

It is not naive to believe that when a person makes promises that they should be allowed to renege if they later claim they never meant to keep them. Instead it is appropriate to be outraged at the person who has made the lie. Blaming the Innertubes is irrelevant. This is about reneging on a contract. If you believe the contract didn’t exist that probably puts you firmly in the the noncommittal middle that had not hope or goals in the first place. Probably not a bad place, with respect to a sense of personal satisfaction.

This is not the best that could be done unless the only goal was to simply do whatever the corporate lobbyists wanted.

It’s not that he will be excluded, it’s that the cost will be astronomical. I already pay a huge amount in out of pocket and other things not covered.

I am sorry to hear of your family’s plight. For whatever it is worth, I won’t be surprised if this entire sham reform effort unravels during attempts to reach a compromise with the House version. In that event, you at least won’t be any worse off than before.

Sincere best wishes to you and your family.

“In his weekly address Saturday, Obama extolled the virtues of the bill for the various protections it would provide for Americans in their health insurance coverage. He also called for an up and down vote on the legislation. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) has struggled to find the necessary 60 votes to beat back a filibuster, which Obama blamed on the insurance companies’ heavy lobbying.”

Well it’s nice of Obama to come right out and say straight up that the Senators with all the leverage in this travesty of a bill were Senators acting on the wishes of lobbyists.

Really gives me faith that we’re getting a good deal, you know?

Hope and Change, people. The Fierce Urgency of 2056.

Exactly so.

Clinton 2.0 without the blowjobs (we can assume) and the political triangulation acumen.

I hope you are right. I keep thinking how stupid does one have to be to fuck up HCR so badly that it actually makes things worse than they are now. I don’t know what is left for them to take from my family.

Thank you. Has a copy been sent to Mr. “We’ve got the left under control” Emanuel?

And secondly, I’m not buying any mandated insurance. I refuse to play this game O, and contribute to somebody’s 3rd home in the Hamptons.

Also, I’m not buying any mandated insurance. Take my house and whatever you want. I’m NOT buying it and contributing to someones’ 3rd house in the Hamptons. Let Emanuel do it.

Btw, just a quick question: just when and what will it take for Obama’s African-American supporters to see this phony for the fraud he is? He hasn’t done a goddam thing for poor AAs or Hispanics. Nada.

And another thing (and this would get me eviscerated by the Obamabots on places like Dailykos): it’s been a year and WTF has MICHELLE Obama done besides pose for Oprah, show off her arms,and plant a garden? Ain’t it time for her to get involved in something good that EVERY first lady since Eleanor Roosevelt has volunteered for? Phoniest couple in politics. Period.

I do hope that somebody is noticing that both for this, which has taken almost 100 years, and Medicare, it took an ex Senator in the White House. Why is that, you so shrill, might ask yourselves. Just ask yourselves, because I think the answer is more important than venting. Leave that for tea bags.

exactly what leverage does every one seem to think Obama had over the likes of the Lieberman collaborators?

Well, there’s the bully pulpit.

He could have gone on national tv and pointed out the enormous gap between what Democrats promised on the campaign trail regarding health care reform and what they have now “delivered” on.

He could have pointed out the millions of dollars in campaign contributions from the insurance industry and the relationship between that and the votes cast by the Congressmen.

He could have owned up to how all the deals he made with Big Pharma, the hospitals and other health care professionals might have sent the wrong message to Congress before the votes.

He could have laid out in some detail how the revolving doors work between New York and Washington to sustain the interest of the rich and powerful, to subvert democracy over and again.

He could have, but: He is smack dab in the middle of all that himself, isn’t he?

I’m not a brilliant political strategist. While you’re correct in stating that there’s no guarantee that starting with single-payer would have resulted in a better outcome there’s also no guarantee that it wouldn’t have. I very much doubt that conservative and centrist Democrats (Which is to say most of them) would have refused to come to the table. They would have if only to posture and harrumph.

Really? After what Lieberman pulled this week, you don’t think there isn’t a block of Democrats reflexively opposed to single-payer? Really?

Obama’s popularity is cratering already. He is, at this point in his presidency, less popular than G.W. Bush was at the same juncture. Obama set himself up for this by representing himself as a different, fresh type of politician to a populace that was fed up with most politicians. He was fresh, but he was no different from any other triangulating, corporatist, Dem pol. By setting such high expectations for change and then delivering so little of it he is managing to disenchant numbers of those people who worked the hardest for him. This does not bode well for the Democrats’ hopes in the 2010 mid-terms. Lamentably, Obama will be unfazed by the erosion of the Democratic majorities because he will then be able to run against Congress in 2012. God knows that he won’t be able to run on his record.

But you know what–his popularity’s cratering because the left is abandoning ship. And that’s shooting ourselves in the foot, like we did in ’94 and ’00. Obama never said that he’d snap his fingers and there would be Change–he always reminded us that it would take hard work, patience, and unity. This is what so pisses me off about liberal opposition to the bill: Republicans and Hillary supporters accused Obama’s supporters of putting too much faith in The One, and Obama supporters would respond by saying that we were more reality-based than that. But comments like yours, and many on this thread, make me think that these criticisms were correct, that too many Democrats do indeed think he is The One, and it’s His fault that we don’t have single payer and the public option. Democrats are faced with a nihilist Republican party, a recalcitrant conservative Democrat flank in both houses, a Senate that requires a supermajority just to order lunch, a press that still sees the 06 and 08 elections as anomalies (we are, after all, a “center right nation,” so sayeth Cokie), and a substantial element of our left wing that cries “sellout!” “triangulation!” “corporatist!” every time we have to settle for half a loaf. I’m happy any reform at all is passing. But of course, liberals will use their disappointment as an excuse to sit out the next election, and the Republicans will rise again…I’ve seen this film before. We like to blame our leaders, or Clintons Gores and Obamas for rolling over when things get rough, but you know what? That’s projection. If the activist base would get fired up for every election like were were last year, we’d actually get some of the reforms we want. But it doesn’t, so Democratic politicians think that they can’t count on their base, and they move right. Please prove me wrong in ’10.

Obama’s popularity is cratering already. He is, at this point in his presidency, less popular than G.W. Bush was at the same juncture.

Actually, Bush was far lower than Obama right up until 9/11 and the circle-the-wagons effect employed on Bush’s behalf by the media. (Of course, if this had happened on Gore’s watch, he would not have got the free pass that Bush did. Then again, the likelihood of it happening on Gore’s watch is a lot slimmer, as Gore would not have blown off his CIA operatives in favor of Likud/PNAC types like Doug Feith.)

Obama: “They’re spending millions of dollars to kill health insurance reform, just like they’ve done so many times before.”

“Yeah, we know. And we know that a good part of it is going to the DNC, thanks to you and Rahm.”

I’m glad Obama’s finally telling the truth to the American people.

Can I just say, there is a lotta smoke up a lotta butts at DKos?

Good Lard, you can patiently and politely rebut on a factual basis, point by point, but there are so-many-in-love-true-believers it’s just sickening.

Those types aren’t progressive, much less democrats.

They’re LOVAHS! Oooo, and you can’t offer one factual criticism of policy, and not piss of the LOVAHs! Ayeee!

He also put approximately zero effort into getting Congress to keep this bill from becoming the pile of stinking shit that it is now.
That’s part of his traditional job: that’s where he’s supposed to be the iron fist in the velvet glove.

Instead we get mixed signals, and the only clear message is ‘Ignore the liberals and the progressives. They’ll vote for us anyway.’

Which they no longer can do. I don’t know who I’ll vote for next November, but it’s not going to be moderate or centrist anything.

I’m with you there. Eleanor Roosevelt and Rosalynn Carter were nearly saints but if I see another story about all of her dresses that she has gotten for free I’m gonna puke. FDR was wheelchair bound from a young age – do I care if the Obamas are supposed to look sweet when the dance? Uh, no.

Given his current age, I’m going for ‘silly’.

At the risk of being stoned as a running dog, submissive Obama lackey; exactly what leverage does every one seem to think Obama had over the likes of the Lieberman collaborators?

Sabotaging bills is the way one gets power over them. The fact that no progressive has really tried to sabotage either of the proposed bills has got to be a massive disappointment here, and to the American people.

Too bad for you: eCAHN actually knows something about the field.

I keep thinking how stupid does one have to be to fuck up HCR so badly that it actually makes things worse than they are now.

My thoughts exactly.

Once again watch Olbermann and Wendell Potter on the health care sell-out. They pretty much destroy Obama and the Democrats attempts to spin and lie:

“Senate Bill a Big Win for Insurance Companies,” Countdown with Keith Olbermann, December 16, 2009

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#34455097

I’d seen an unprecedented erosion of Obama love at Kos and TPM during the past week. The moment Reid announced he had the votes it appeared most were back on board.

But this bill blows. all in all, don’t improve shit. why support it?

why are we lucky to get this bill? i don’t feel luck. why should I ?

what leverage does Obama have over the Lieberschmucks and what’s his motivation for wanting a crappy bill?

He has little leverage because in exposing how the healthcare industrial complex buys votes in Congress he merely exposes how it buys policies in the White House too.

What motivation does Obama have? How about this:

Corporate Law Firms $45,518,596
Misc Business $16,668,854
Securities & Investment $15,983,457
Health Professionals $12,093,433
Business Services $12,008,416
Real Estate $11,036,591
Computers/Internet $8,623,560
Misc Finance $6,770,615
Printing & Publishing $6,158,721
Commercial Banks $3,537,569
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $3,473,368
Construction Services $3,035,565

This is the money corporate America has invested in his political career. Going back just to 2006!!! They are largely the ones who made it possible for him to be in the White House.

Hi Margot.

Did you see my late reply to your reply in an afternoon thread yesterday? Nothing major, just an acknowledgment that your memory was better than mine.

There are a lot of people at dKos who are very much not on board with this bill. Not sure about TPM – the guys at the top may be with it, but the ones at the bottom are less happy.

Dems are fucked in 20010.

Obama and the Brain Trust have assumed the Roverian approach …assume that the American people are stupid and repeat a lie often enough and the MSM will broadcast it as if it were the truth for the poor dumb assholes across the country.

Not even near 1/2 a loaf.

Remember that the Bushes didn’t do even that much. Mrs Shrub did tours for school reading programs. Other than that, they were ornaments, IIRC.

Dems are fucked in 20010.

I know if I’m around 18,000 years from now I plan to vote against them.

The 2010 elections won’t be a referendum on Obama so much as an opportunity to restructure a more progressive Congress. We won’t want to miss this opportunity to create a cohesive pool of responsive leaders.

Obama can work with lefties if we give them to him.

We, the people have to strengthen our cause in government because the centrists and the righties won’t do it.

Plus, with a second wave of financial catastrophe, golden parachutes will have transmuted back to lead and the too big to fail paradigms of corporatistim-uber-alles will implode into radioactive dust-bunnies and glow in the dark goo-piles. The public will need depression-era political representation and the reasons will become clear by mid year when the Fed stops buying mortgage paper and the foreclosure juggernaut morphs into terminal arm-aggedon. So don’t dis good dems, just collar the blue dogs come election day.

Last night on Bill Moyers Matt Taibbi and Kuttner said that one of Obama’s problems in DC is that no one “fears” him. No arm twisting, no tough talk (unless it’s his “base”). They may indeed may not fear the one who has a bipartisanship fetish but more troublesome is he does not fear the left. When Obama and his henchmen fear the left then there is hope. I don’t expect that Obama will allow himself to ever be interviewed by Bill Moyers.

OT but an important point is the number of those who die because of a lack of medical care, either from being under insured or not insured at all. According to a Harvard study the number is around 45,000 a year. These are casualties of the class war that has been going on for the last 40+ years. As Warren Buffet said there is a class war going on and his class is winning. When do we begin to see these casualities as a result of a class war that the plutocrats have been winning?

I’ve been a Democrat since I was old enough to know what that meant. So were my parents, and my grandparents.

But because I’m not on the battlements screaming for heads on pikes, I’m somehow not a real Democrat anymore?

Excuse me for being a realist about things.

Want a more progressive Congress? Read this.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Michael%20Canteberry/My%20Documents/-No-One-Is-Going-To-Save-You-Fools.htm

Obama has always believed himself and the adulating press that he is the smartest guy in the room, much like Clinton, and that he can convince people of anything. Well he is wrong on both counts and should be snapped back to reality. He feels he can make us swallow this current Senate bill like nice pets, but he is dead wrong, he is not as clever as he believes.

The two flagrant problems with the Senate version of the bill is the mandate and the taxes on benefits as the way of bringing down health care costs. Both these measures are direct transfers of money to private insurers from policy holders and Obama knows it. He is after all not stupid, only cynical. But enough of him we know what he is and what to expect from him.

It’s time to ditch Obama in this respect, we should cease to confide in his word and fight his harmful policies at every point along the way. Basically take a pragmatic approach. Where he acts responsibly support him and where he doesn’t fight him tooth and nail, but with real teeth.

For instance make it clear through pronouncements that mandates will simply not be obeyed, there are no legal grounds for them and they should be challenged in court. But this threat needs to be real and carried through.

Also simply refuse to pay insurance premiums and co pays for say a month and bring the system to a halt. Or begin recall elections of officials were the law permits and were they are not not in the books to install them through referendums.

The point is that neither Congress nor Obama as institutions of governance work in the public’s interest and alternatives need to be sought and pusued. Beginning now. Power needs to be devolved back to the people and away from the government. The will of the people at this point can only be realized from outside of the government. We need to face up to that fact.

Congress and the WH need to realize that we are not obliged to bow down to harmful dictates as if serfs to their lords.

You must have overlooked me saying patiently and politely rebutting policy criticisms on a factual basis.

Please offer one for agreement or disagreement.

Um, if I refuse to pay insurance premiums and co-pays I’ll die. Slowly and painfully.

Pass.

That should give ‘em enough time for a bath and clean undies first.

I did. And I was called a tool and a neoliberal BY PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG because I was obviously either in the tank for Obama or an idiot.

So why should I go through that again just for your edification?

Your link appears to be to a file on your hard drive.

There is one proviso; for this to work, you have to be truthful and right.

But truthful and right about what set of facts?

The facts neither the Democrats nor the Republicans [nor the mainstream media] examine in depth are the ones revolving around crony capitalism—around the systemic relationship between money in New York and power in Washington.

For example, imagine that “small group in the White House” pointing out to reporters, “if you explore the relationship between the votes in Congress on healthcare reform and the campaign funding from the health care industry you will notice a pattern whereby those who recieved the mosty cash from them almost always voted for a bill that was in the interest of the industry first and foremost.”

or

“you probably noticed how so much of the actual content of the bill is hacked out behind closed doors, away from the public”

Take it up with those individuals then and leave me out of it.

I don’t do the ad hominem game. I do policy and food.

The only person I call names at is Larue, ’cause he’s a big mook. Just ask him.

I just so disagree with the pic up above . . .

Linking any disagreement with Obama and this admin that shows black issues and pics as such?

Inappropriate.

And I don’t mind saying so.

I’m just a commenter, and that’s my opinion.

No, but I think I know what you’re talking about. Sorry to nitpick, and thanks.

Speak of the devil…

Hi hunny!

14 May 2007

Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama, seeking support from labor union members in New Jersey, vowed Monday to make health insurance available to all Americans by the end of his first term in the White House.

“We can have universal health care by the end of the next president’s first term, by the end of my first term,” Obama said, bringing 600 union workers to their feet during a question-and-answer session with members of AFL-CIO affiliated unions.

The discussion was part of the labor organizations’ presidential endorsement process, and Obama used much of it to pitch his plan to bring health insurance to the 45 million Americans who lack it.

“This is an issue whose time has come,” the Illinois senator said.

Obama said affordable health insurance can be funded by saving $75 billion per year through having more people use regular doctor checkups instead of more expensive emergency room visits, improving treatment of chronic illnesses and relying more on technology to reduce paperwork.

He said medical records can be put onto a digital chip that can be carried around on a key chain, for instance.

“If the credit card company can do it, I don’t know why the medical system can’t do it,” Obama said.

If those moves aren’t enough, he said he would support rolling back tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.

Obama also said he won’t take the black vote for granted.

“I expect to have to earn it,” Obama said. “I think that the African-American community is sophisticated, like any group of voters, and they’re going to make up their minds based on whether they think I have the leadership capacity and the agenda that’s going to make their lives better.”

Capacity is mired in the gutter, Hope has committed suicide, and Change would be in Intensive Care after hitting that wall, but can’t afford it.

It was in regard to my assertion that the GOP feigned sympathy with social conservatives but never actually gave them anything. You provided examples of Bush doing just that, faith-based initiatives, etc..

You, Sir are the ONLY one I’ll personally allow to do so.

But please use it sparingly so.

Or I will be forced to respond with ferver, and bourbon balls.

You SIR, have been warned and notified.

Harumph.

We will not forget. The WH fix was in before the House and Senate had their first meeting. Obama has lost all powers of suasion and credibility.

obama:

“They’re spending millions of dollars to kill health insurance reform, just like they’ve done so many times before.”

Yes, and who are they dispensing this money to, the Republicans?

Look at the money the insurance industry has contributed re the 2010 senate election cycle so far. Of the top 20, 10 are Democrats and 10 are Republicans. Party affliation means absolutely nothing to Wall Street. Both parties are bought and paid for.

1 Schumer, Charles E (D-NY) $197,600
2 Dodd, Chris (D-CT) $165,750
3 Grassley, Chuck (R-IA) $126,450
4 Lincoln, Blanche (D-AR) $113,450
5 Bennett, Robert F (R-UT) $107,400
6 Reid, Harry (D-NV) $106,750
7 Burr, Richard (R-NC) $102,750
8 Shelby, Richard C (R-AL) $98,100
9 Bayh, Evan (D-IN) $87,600
10 Gillibrand, Kirsten (D-NY) $80,600
11 Crapo, Mike (R-ID) $80,400
12 Thune, John (R-SD) $68,200
13 Murray, Patty (D-WA) $67,650
14 DeMint, James W (R-SC) $66,050
15 Nelson, Ben (D-NE) $64,500
16 Wyden, Ron (D-OR) $59,600
17 Carper, Tom (D-DE) $50,610
18 Vitter, David (R-LA) $48,700
19 Isakson, Johnny (R-GA) $48,600
20 Ensign, John (R-NV) $48,526

Go upstairs Larue. Thers is cooking. And it’s good.

I promise to be nice tonight. :)

Hey you two, get a room.

It’s called junk insurance for a reason. This Senate bill was written by the insurance companies for God’s sake. The sole purpose of private insurers is to deny benefits. What good is health care ins. that has high copays & deductibles. Are you aware older folks can be charged rates 3X regular rates. If having ins. is so great, why are medical bills the leading cause for bankruptcy, noting that nearly 80% of those HAD health insurance. Without a strong, robust public option at the least, reform isdoomed anyway. The passed bill will decimated before it takes effect in 2014. Either the GOP takes over & does it or stoned by the public Dems will drop the mandates. The bill not see the light of day as written.

OI will, but wasn’t that taped before the lieberman. nelson, snowe etc cabal began their bad faith in earnest? But, thanks I’ll take a look.

“President, please?” Nice.

What’s next, TBagg, “legislative lynching” jokes?

Great point… thanks! I’d like to respond and here’s my cherry pick from the post you mentioned.

f you want to win, you will ORGANIZE. You will organize in the same way the Right has done for the last 40 years, and you will spend money on persuasion, where it really matters. You will, in short, make the politicians as afraid of you as they are of them.

The persuasion factor to which the author so faithfully adheres is real. It is used by the industry for the industry. It is used by the Right for the Right. It is Rovian, Atwoodian, and Military-Industrial-Complex-ian. It speaks to the facility of the mind called anticipation and there is no getting around it.

It is also capable of bringing down corrupt enterprises, dictatorships, and unsinkable ocean liners. The author of that article omitted one important point. Sure, she mentions Jane Hamsher, but she forgot to mention the role of FDL in unmasking the Bush administration’s naked, corrupt mangling of the American ethos. FDL’ers were a big part of why the Dems were in a position to win the election because FDL was ground zero of the opposition to the malfeasance, misfeasance and nonfeasance of the Bush regime.

We won the battle but can we win the war?

No, but we can control the opposition. We will do that by destroying them.

They will fear us because we can deflate the world economy in a cataclysm of “doing nothing”. It is that simple. Just do nothing and the world will fall apart. That is what is about to happen. All that capacity to produce useless products which empty our pocketbooks and pollute the environment — that is going to lay idle because nobody will want crap any more.

To destroy the insurance companies, the finance companies, the Pharma’s of the world is easy. Just do nothing and their power over you evaporates.

It’s good-bye world when the American consumer says… “no thanks”.

Game over, man. It is about to happen, so get ready to just say “no”. It’s fun to see their reaction when that power of persuasion gets zero traction. They’ll try and outlaw non-compliance (so kill the mandate!) but it won’t help. The fabric of society unravels when the culture of compliance gives way to individualism borne of necessity. There won’t be a point of view compelling enough to attract critical mass once the roof caves in.

Food, clothing, shelter. Work on it to the exclusion of all else and you’ll survive the Great Deflation of 2010-2013. Good luck! And vote progressive. No one else will understand your uniqueness like a progressive.

You miss the main point. I did not expound on the point related to premiums either.

To elaborate, if you are healthy now and are merely paying premiums, as the vast majority of policy holders are, then you are merely paying into the system that you claim to want to do away with.

Witholding of premiums for those in a position to do so needs to be done once, and then the private insusrers will take notice. The other choice is to continue to fatten private insurers without any recourse, because that is the choice that insurers and the government have left you.

If you want to remain impotent and do as you are bidden then nothing will change. My larger point is that actions need to be sought outside the current government structure. I do not believe there is any further need of proof of that.

My friend, you’ve never been not nice, and I mookie ya for that . . .

:p

*tweet*

“Obama could have started the process by stating loud and clear that he wanted single-payer UHC and then negotiated down from there”

I’ll ask again, exactly how would that have affected Lieberhosen & Company?
I’m begging you here, what would that have changed? Nothing and Obama knew that going in and he managed expectations.. Ant three year old knows you don’t let your ego write checks that you know you can’t cash. You got rolled by unrealistic expectations. Do you somehow actually believe that FDR would have passed social security with this congress?

See, the problem here is that this is not a prediction, but a post-diction. Generally not going to be very persuasive. As to what would have changed had Obama been more aggressive? Suppose he had gone out and hit the circuit, was on the tube 24/7 selling a more progressive? Suppose that instead of leaning on the “Progressives”, he leaned on on the likes of Lieberman, Baye, etc? Threaten them. Let Lieberman know that if so much as opens his pipsqueak yap at all, there goes all of his committee assignments. For those Senators who are actually members of the Democratic party, let them know that they will get zero support from the national organization come election time.

In short, don’t try to pretend there wasn’t more that Obama’s gun boys could have tried, but didn’t. Would that have succeeded in rolling these recalcitrants? I don’t know. But you don’t get to claim that administration couldn’t have done anything else that would have credibly persuaded the oh-so-convenient fence-sitters. That only happens when they actually exert some effort. Short of that, you don’t know, and you’re trying to slip that in as an established fact. Kind of like one of my duller students trying to slip in the statement to be proved as an assumption.

I think we’ve finally reached the point where the Progressive base of the Democratic party has to make a decision. It’s never been more obvious that the Democratic party has no interest in fighting for our agenda. The healthcare reform process has been a case in point. Think back to President Obama’s campaign speaches about healthcare and compare them to the reality. What could have and should have been a huge improvement to the social fabric of America has instead turned out to be a total betrayal.

We’ve watched the President and majority Democrats sell out every good part of reform in exchange for nothing. We all waited in vain for the President to show some leadership, to fight for us. Only in the past few days have the Democrats finally shown some passion on the issue. Incredibly it hasn’t been directed at Joe Lieberman or Ben Nelson or any other insurence industry sellout. The long awaited passion has surfaced in the form of attacks on anybody who questions this sellout. Howard Dean had it right and they lit into him the way they should go after Lieberman. Ed Schultz fights hard for a decent bill every night and in return the Democrats send Lanny Davis to attack him. For 2 straight days, Chris Mathews has slandered the base for not falling in line and going along with the sellout. The President spoke to Mathews for 10 seconds at a recent White House party and in return he’s become their anti base mouthpiece. A pat on the head was all he needed.

Since these guys can not win without our vote, we have to start making them pay for our vote. They count on the fact that there’s no other party that we can support and hope to defeat the republicans. We’ve reached the point where we have to threaten to stay home on election day, and mean it. If we’re going to end up with Joe Lieberman in control when Democrats get elected, then what difference does it make if Democrats get elected?

Starting a third party would take too long, so our only hope is to reform the Democrats and make them what they’re supposed to be. We do that by banding together and voting as a block. We make the Democrats promise action in exchange for that vote and INSIST that promises be kept. We put up REAL progressive candidates at primary time and purge the sellouts. There’s no use at all to claim to have a majority vote when you have at least half a dozen traitors ready to backstab you the way Lieberman has done.

Before we do anything else, we need someone to organize a Progressive Block Vote and find a representative to represent that block. ENOUGH OF THIS BS. LETS FIGHT THE SOBs/

Read only a few of these. Somebody will give us a clue, take this bill out. Then on to the whores who sold us out. Fuck all this patriotic do what’s right crap, unless we unite to bring down this system that fucks us every time we’re just wasting out time here. As in Lucy’s football. If we can’t find the leadership we need, then we need to just scurry back into our holes, and shut up. First thing, take out the bill. Who will it be, Dean one would hope? Jane and her homies? Feingold? All these together? All of us, united? Guts, anyone?

Meh.

Someone way upthread mentioned that Republicans always push through with their nation-destroying plans, no matter whether they have public support or not. Well, yeah. It’s a lot easier to pass stuff that’s going to benefit rich people and corporations – there’s always plenty of folks on both sides of the aisle on their payroll.

So yeah, the bill’s a sellout piece of shit. Don’t know why anyone expected anything better, not when one whole party is dedicated to obstructionism and the other is half-owned by the people whose ox they’re supposed to gore.

But look on the bright side. Someone else upthread said they were going to refuse to comply with the mandate, and then someone else said they couldn’t afford to do that. But you know who will do it? Think real hard here – what group of people is famous specifically for opposing efforts to help them, and would in fact vote themselves into living in a car if it meant the other poor bastard would end up living in a cardboard box? That’s right – our friends the teabaggers! Next up, we need to infiltrate and convince them all to stand defiant against the mandates, even to cancel their employer-provided coverage so it can’t be taxed to help poor brown people get health care. And presto bingo, we go from 15% uninsured to 30% uninsured, premiums go through the roof, causing even more people to drop insurance, and before you know it there’s widespread demand to really fix the damn thing. Even from the insurers themselves, who will at that point be looking at ceasing to exist.

The senate bill is a bandaid on a sucking chest wound, but it ain’t the end of the world. It will do nothing to slow growth of costs, and so within just a very few short years at the most they’ll be back to tinkering with it.

That’s the way we do things in this country – too late, or not at all. We fix things when we’ve run out of trying alternatives to avoid fixing them. It sucks that people will continue to suffer in the meantime, but that’s how it is.

Mandate and no choices,a beautiful gift from obama and senate,extermination of medium class
and poors.My memory is not short,i’ll see 2010 and 2012,no more donations
and support for these democratic politicians ever!!!i’ve been stabbed in
the back.

*facepalm*

You know what, I’m out.

Sorry. but “millions more will be insured” doesn’t mean squat. I’m insured. I work for the public as a teacher. Recently I had a mild heart attack due to a congenital condition. Even with my “good” insurance I was nearly bankrupted by the experience.

Passing the mandate without effective cost controls and eliminating the anti-trust exemption alongside the thousands of exceptions and loopholes won’t fool America. Millions will be given crappy insurance that the taxpayers will help pay above-market prices for and there will still be enormous bills to pay is anyone actually uses the insurance.

No, this is not a good thing. Not by a long shot.

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said “the Americans always do the right thing, after they have tried everything else.”

Would have been nice during the campaign if Obama had said,

“I’d like to offer you transparency on PHARMA, but I’m sure I’ll end up cutting a deal behind closed doors. Sorry, no CSpan. As for the description of my health care plan with the robust public option, well, we’ve just taken so much money from the insurance industry that we will have to run that by them. I don’t think they’ll like it much. I’ll fight for it, sort of, but I’m just a politician and, hey, you know…”

What we heard was just the opposite. Change we can believe in, my ass.

And here we go again. Funny how George W. Bush was able to push through hideous legislation with only a 51 vote majority. We have 60 votes and yet it’s so like totally unfair to expect Obama to be able to you know like get things done! He set the tone by placing a spending limit out of the gate (why, who knows?) and then proceeded to give away all the progressive pieces before negotiations even started. Deal making actually works when you start high and work your way down as the compromise. Universal coverage at the beginning would’ve meant that the Senate could’ve negotiated down to a public option and been glad of it to escape the socialistic evils of single payer.

Oh, and funny how big PhRMA and the insurance execs got everything they wanted, the anti-wombers got what they wanted, the Blue Dogs got everything they wanted and the progressives got NOTHING and you argue that Obama did all he could? Puhlease….

Great Post!!!

Oh, and funny how big PhRMA and the insurance execs got everything they wanted, the anti-wombers got what they wanted, the Blue Dogs got everything they wanted and the progressives got NOTHING and you argue that Obama did all he could? Puhlease….

It’s worse than that, actually. He wants some sort of statement about what Obama could have done, then argues that there’s no way to be sure it would have worked out that way.

Iow, he wants to play “If you can’t make me say you’re right I win”. A mug’s game.

That’s just plain insulting. Magic pixie dust? No, he THANKED Lieberman for f-ing him over! How about he grabs Reid by the short and curlies and tells him to yank Lieberman’s chairmanship and ban him from the caucus? How about, since he was a sitting senator and knew all about the logjams having the Democratic majority vote to change the rules last January when he was riding high on the public’s best wishes? Entrenching a crappy piece of legislation that mandates purchasing unaffordable insurance will be bloody impossible to undo yet you argue that it’s the best we can hope for? Please sir, hit me again! Jeebus on a cracker, I don’t understand this attitude!

I’m well aware of the corporate interests at play, thanks, but it hardly answers the question. I don’t suppose you noticed that health professionals (labor lobbyist) and lawyers top your list. Doesn’t that induce more than a little cognitive dissonance for you?
“They are largely the ones who made it possible for him to be in the White House.”
Just stop it. Clinton had more money than candidate Obama, and money wasn’t McCain’s problem. Again, I’m not defending the bill, I just don’t get all the RedState ready comments,that are, in my opinion, very misdirected. And to what end? Does any body think President McCain would have put anything on the table, or for that matter Palin / Pawlenty / Plumber in 2012?
We know how to lose elections, so I guess going postal on a Democrat who wins one makes sense, we can all get back to our righteous indignation.
Keith Olbermann may be entertaining, but it might be smart to remember he goes to ballgames with Sean Hannity. Know what I mean?

I don’t understand your code, but I feel that it’s better that you’re out. We need people with a bit more courage to improve things. Let’s leave it at that.

Reagan, Bush (I/II), and all their water-bearers didn’t give a rats ass about what anyone else thought and they were able to push through legislation that disassembled this nation on their own – with less control of the legislature than Obama now has!

and, if i recall correctly, “the left” spent all those years screaming in horror at the idea of an imperial presidency that did whatever it wanted to, laws and customs be damned. but, we’re OK with that now? we want that from our guy?

interesting.

Btw, just a quick question: just when and what will it take for Obama’s African-American supporters to see this phony for the fraud he is? He hasn’t done a goddam thing for poor AAs or Hispanics. Nada.

That will be as soon as they have to pay that first month premium.

We know how to lose elections, so I guess going postal on a Democrat who wins one makes sense, we can all get back to our righteous indignation

If you call what the White House and the Democratic Congress have accomplished with this health care legislation an example of what we can accomplish when we don’t let our “righteous indignation” get in the way, we are examining this from political points of view so far removed I suspect the gap will never be closed.

Clinton and Obama are interchangable Bilderberger, DLC Democrats to people like me. I don’t make a large distinction between them and the John McCain Republicans.

What makes this “reform” legislation particularly deplorable is that, coming from Democrats, it is likely to stay with us now for decades and decades. The problem we will be told in now solved.

Right.

capitalism in its purest form which reagan and his followers put capitalism on does not concern itself with people.

they are warm bodies and the cheaper the body the more profit in thier minds.

the capitalists will not rest until they are able to have third world wages in america.

they are doing very well in that dept.

first they rid themseves of unions.

the they must eliminate the middle class

then they must control congress and the white house

then the mass media must be in their control

they are winning on all fronts while america sleeps

they must make capitalism a synonym with patroitism

which they have done with great success

they are pure genius and now control the media, education, medical, congress, white house, military, industrial military complex. the justice system, and they must make america a debtor nation ot control the masses.

give credit where credit is due they have done a brillant job in reducing the american worker to low class status.

americans have lost the class battle. they now have what they want. cheap labor.

here is the strangest aspect of this….

no one other than bob somersby seems interested in revealing how much more the usa is spending for lousy medical services.

and no one seems to want to do anything to bring our medical costs into line with all the other “civilized” industrial nations[canada, france, switzerland, the netherlands, germany, the uk, japan, et alia].

the purported progressive left appears to work assiduously to ignore these medical cost realities. why is that?

somersby ask the same question, by the way.

i am a manufacturer. a business man. i provide medical insurance for my employees. virtually 100% out of my pocket. why? because they need that backstop.

but in another sense, it enslaves them.

medical insurance is a modality of servitude. and the business roundtable and the chamber of commerce loves that shackle.

i would prefer that my employees had the wherewithal to have their own briefcase of health care insurance[like the citizens of every other industrial country]. so that if they wanted to move on, they would have no medical insurance inhibitions.

but more to the point, why should my company’s bottom line be littered with payments to the insurance industry?

and why is it that i don’t see these features discussed on this site? is it because no one who posts to this sites owns and operates a business?

in other words, are the posters here poseurs?

“They’re spending millions of dollars to kill health insurance reform, just like they’ve done so many times before.

And that’s hard for them. So I urge Congress to pass this legislation in order to give them billions of dollars in subsidies with which to fund future lobbying.

There’s a hell of a lot of difference between emphatically pushing legislation that’s for the common good and an imperial presidency. I want “our guy” to do something for someone who doesn’t already have a billion dollars.

and, if i recall correctly, “the left” spent all those years screaming in horror at the idea of an imperial presidency that did whatever it wanted to, laws and customs be damned. but, we’re OK with that now? we want that from our guy?

interesting.

Here’s the difference; the MAJORITY of Americans want this legislation. And it will benefit the MAJORITY of Americans. That is exactly the opposite of Bushist imperialism.

The only imperials in this equation are the self-serving legislators.

Oboy! A slightly racist retort wouldn’t you say?

Mission Accomplished for Obama’s Haves and Have Mores — Insurance Edition

I’d like to see Masaccio do a Taibbi mash up on how this D.C. head fake called Health Care Reform is at its core, the insurance industry’s turn at the bailout trough – just another regressive tax on the road to what Elizabeth Warren & Marcy Wheeler have identified as the feudalizing of what’s left of the American middle class.

Simply stated, for profit insurance has two interdependent sides.

1) They sell policy coverage for premiums according to risk, morbidity and mortality calculations known as actuarial science. The ratio of premiums to risk losses must be within prudent financial limits or the companies won’t have enough money to pay their insureds claims. They retain excess premiums and divert these funds into the other side of their business. The more income they collect, the less losses they pay out, and the longer they delay these payouts, the faster they can aggregate investment capital.

2) Insurance has been one of the pillars of capital formation for hundreds of years. These corporations own or finance some the largest investment portfolios in the world, particularly commercial real estate. Their massive asset bases back up the written risk coverage by generating long term capital growth. The more the assets increase, the more risk they can take on, generating even more premium income. This is the source of most of their net income which drives their profits, executive compensation, shareholder dividends and stock growth.

When insurance corporations find themselves writing off enormous loans and walking away from commercial real estate because occupancy rates, rents, net operating income and therefore asset values have tanked precipitously, it turns their business models upside down. Add to this vortex any spectacularly crashing unregulated, highly leveraged hedge fund bets these same corporations made to boost their portfolio income … well, we can’t have insurance executives selling pencils and apples on the street, can we?

Of course, more than just executive compensation and shareholder value is endangered by this scenario. Every insured risk inadequately backed by a real asset constitutes a systemic risk, not unlike BCCI, Enron, AIG, World Com & Lehman. This is a real, if unacknowledged indebtedness is , not unlike pension funds that are unable to pay promised benefits to their participants due to depreciated asset bases.

Obama/Summers/Geithner’s continuing exploit of Bush’s Bernanke Put and trillions of Fed intervention in all facets of the financial markets has caused the 60%+ run up in equities since March 2009. It remains to be seen if the financial side of this economy can grow sustainably without such props, and not at the expense of the real domestic economy where goods and services are produced, sold and consumed — the America where the have less and have very little are trying the best they can to survive.

Except the polls don’t say this.

This legislation bears almost no resemblance to BO’s campaign platform. The Democratic party was hijacked by a hand-picked candidate that was sure to inspire and rally enough voters to believe that he would work for their interests when NOTHING in his actual record really supported that notion. Read Glenn Ford’s and Bruce Dixon’s reporting at BAR for a good historical account on candidate Obama and his rise in Illinois politics. We are seeing evidence of this sham now in this impotent HC “reform” and every other major issue. I fo rone am hoping for a popular uprising against it between now and 2014 when most of it will kick in.

What about the rights of women. I guess it takes a bunch of crotchety old men to make decisions about women’s health. Despicable

Obama has always wanted to be seen as an FDR or a Lincoln. Surprise! He is like Hayes: “His Fraudulency.” It is refreshing to find a site that doesn’t edit out every anti-Obama sentiment. Great work, FDL.

The majority of Americans want health care reform, NOT this legislation.

Those “subsidies” the apologists are talking so much about?

They’re someone else’s tax dollars, being siphoned into the pockets of fat cats.

This mess is ANOTHER upward transfer of wealth.

You can call it a victory. It’s just another nail in the coffin.

What I’ve learned about President Obama:
The outcomes he claims to achieve are vastly different from his stated intentions.
He is a puppet and the strings are showing.
His presidency is a continuation of George W. Bush’s replete with torture and sell-outs to big corporations.
He dislikes blacks (highest unemployment rates in years) and gays (nothing concrete done – nothing).
He hates critics from the left and cuts them out.
He has succeeded in uniting this progressive Democrat (possibly soon to be Independent) with the Republicans to defeat the horrid health care sell-out.
Incredidly, he has spawned another group of tea baggers – this one from the left.

this would make a good diary imo

You are most certainly correct – particularly if they’ve paid attention. That fact gives me greater respect for the American public than I have had in many years.

This bill will do for health care what the Clear Skies Act did for pollution.

A most excellent analysis. You thoughts reflect a deep pool of understanding.

So as the commercial real estate debacle continues to play out with asset values diminished by half, rents and revenue continuing to fall, stimulus running dry, new waves of bank seizures, and residential real estate investment failing to recover — won’t this overwhelm the delayed action of the putative health care reform?

Won’t the system collapse well before the bill hits the till?

I think your analysis is spot on. If the situation is as you describe it, and I believe it is, the insurance sector is in for quite a haircut. From the neck up… So your point is well taken — this can only be seen as a bailout. One that is to little, to late. Thus their fear and loathing of progressives who want real reform — reform that will have to come the hard way — from the ground up.

Deflation is the great equalizer. The haves join the have-nots when the blinded leadership leads us all into the ditch. When the tech sector rally fails in mid-April, the hedgies will experrience a wave of liquidation that starts the next phase of this “Great Unwinding”. See you there!

Historically, when insurers take a haircut the policy holders get to pay the barber. With automobile insurance mandated by the states and homeowners’ insurance mandated by mortgage lenders and with health insurance about to become mandatory as well (Thanks, Obama!), the insurers will have no qualms about adjusting their P&L with our money. That’s only right: we need to start inflating the next bubble as soon as possible.

Heh heh… those nasty actuarials… behold the rise of the Vampire Economy! Just like Bush’s vaunted “Ownership Society”, only now it’s the ratepayers getting owned.

We’re creating… an ownership society in this country, where more Americans than ever will be able to open up their door where they live and say, welcome to my house, welcome to my piece of property. – President George W. Bush, October 2004.

How’s the view from Trent Lott’s porch now GW?

What?! no more insurance?!! We can call those uninsurables “Katrina-class citizens”. Time to pay the Barbour! (/snicker snark)

Heckuvajob there Article II boobs! Oh, and long live bubbles! China to the fore!

I think one thing we neeed to be clear about in our minds is that it is not the cast of characters that accounts for the unpopular legislation emanating from the Congress and the WH. Such focus misses the latger point. We must steel ourselves with the fact that it is the structure of government itself that needs changing and in the meantime we should look elsewhere for more immediate solutions.

We need solutions that rely on the people as a group, collective action outside of government. We need to see that we hold no allegiance to this particular form of government. The rupture should be easy given that the interests of the government lies not with the public but instead with a narrow group of monied interests.

Thus the HCR legislation betrayal is not the first time nor will it be the last time that the public is crowded out of legislation, this in fact has been going on for years. It is ruinous and incredible that people should still harbor hopes that if only we tried harder we could persuade the government to take pity on us and dispense their largesse on us.

That is not only cowardly but futile. We are the fodder that provides the sweat and the money for the wheels that turn against us. We should simply stop being that fodder. In essence we should carry out a strike. We should for instance withdraw funds from large banks into smaller banks, refuse to paticipate in mandates and withold premium payments if one is able to for say a month, and install laws for recalls of President and Congressmen.

I think that pressure on elected officials although nice is entirely beside the point, that has been tried ad nauseum and to absolutely no avail. Time to go to plan B, turn our collective back on the government and rely on ourselves.

So how long before the “I’ve never been naked in front of a camera” Miss (ex) California videos show up on the self next to the Paris videos.??
Word has it that Volume 1 is titled ” My Biggest Mistake” …and by Volume 4 she’s trying to squirt..

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/11/exclusive-30-nude-photos-8-sex-tapes-carrie-prejean-surface

” Stripped of her crown, Prejean sued the Miss California USA pageant but reportedly settled after the sex tape surfaced. She called the sex tape the biggest mistake of her life….Now a RadarOnline.com investigation has uncovered that there are SEVEN more “biggest mistakes” of her life – all of them solo performances, just like the one sex tape that the religious beauty queen has admitted to. And there are 30 photos of Carrie, most topless, some showing everything…..”

Also:

” In her newly released book Carrie wrote, “God gave us our bodies, and it’s perfectly right that we use them in ways where we can give glory to God by making our bodies, our temples of the Holy Spirit, strong and fast.”

That’s why she shoved rubber cheese burger shaped fake boobs under her skin…

“If you call what the White House and the Democratic Congress have accomplished with this health care legislation an example of what we can accomplish when we don’t let our “righteous indignation” get in the way, we are examining this from political points of view so far removed I suspect the gap will never be closed.” Of course I made no such assertion George, but it makes a hell of a closed end argument. And since you have yet to actually address any of my questions at all, not to mention, in the respectful manner in which they were asked, what can I say? If you believe there would be no discernible difference between a McCain, Clinton or Obama presidency, you’ve obviously forgotten how Ralph Nader’s identical claim worked out. Other than the tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children that are now dead, there wasn’t a dimes worth of difference between Bush and Gore, No?
So by all means, enjoy your smug cynicism, you can always feel superior, and the self righteous anger is intoxicating. But here’s a tip my grandmother gave me; when you can’t be bright, be polite.

I appreciate your perspective, and I hope I’m wrong and it turns out to be true. But consider this: if a deductible (the part you have to pay straight before insurance kicks in) is five or ten thousand dollars… on top of thousands of dollars (subsidized or otherwise) of premiums… and the deductible does not include copays and prescriptions… how many people will postpone care until it’s too late? Because simply getting to the point where their “insurance” would pay for anything would put them in an overwhelming amount of debt… if they could even get the care they need.

Most bankruptcies in the U.S. are partly or entirely due to medical bills, and the overwhelming majority of people who declare bankruptcy for medical reasons had insurance when they got sick. A million women will file for bankruptcy this year — more than will graduate from college.

I’d love it if this bill changed that, but I don’t see how it does.

You’re so right: this bill is better than anything McCain would have done. It’s also better than a kick in the nuts, a flat tire, or stepping in fresh dog shit. What it’s not better than is a bill with a public option, or one that allowed Medicare buy-in, or one that didn’t further erode a woman’s right to choose.

“Better than nothing” is far from change I can believe in.

Aw, guys. Get real.

I think it’s a start.

Word.

Nope. It’s a POS.

So TBogg starts a thread about the HCR bill on Saturday, it reaches 170 responses today, I start skimming through it to see if it’s worth going through… and people are talking about Carrie Prejean.

Right. tl;dr, toodle-oo.

You won’t get an argument from me on that. I’ve never defended the bill in my comments. It’s a huge disappointment, that, in my opinion, reflects more on a congress, captured by corporations than it reflects on the administration. I posed a couple of questions for which I was quicky stoned as a running dog lackey and an O-bot surrender monkey. I just happen to think the vitriol is misdirected and that killing the bill would be a mistake. I didn’t claim any certitude, just my opinion. So far, I haven’t been persuaded otherwise. However, I have been depressed by the amount of RedState ready rage and teabagesque thinking that often accompanied the retorts. I come here for a laugh, oh well.