You’re coming dangerously close to becoming “shrill”.

It’s really interesting to me the number of right wingers who are pointing out that the guy is mentally ill, as if that meant he couldn’t have been influenced by the violent rhetoric of the right. In fact, that probably makes him more susceptible to it.

Careful Tbogg — Patrick Appel is watching, and we all know how calling out teabaggers for their violent rhetoric is, like, ten times worse than actually shooting a Democratic congresswoman in the face, not to mention murdering a Federal judge and a nine year-old.

This is one of those stunning compilations that should be on the front page of every daily.

EWick’s got another tweet up that just rocks.

The idiots on the left are recycling this old post of mine and failing to note I’m am elected official too. http://t.co/e8J6bZt

I think the picture we have coming into focus about this kid is that he didn’t seem to be playing for any team other than Team Crazy. At the same time, as you’ve illustrated very well, it’s clear which side has been using eliminationist rhetoric and violent imagery to their political advantage non-stop for several years, and which side ends up losing politically with even a passing reference to 60s radicals like Bill Ayers or the Black Panthers.

Erickson’s attempt to keep the focus on the murky political leanings of the shooter is clever, but I don’t think anyone’s going to fall for it.

Erickson can take his little holier-than-thou mau-mauing, fold it neatly, and shove it back up whatever particular orifice he produced it from.

You police your side of the street, and we’ll police ours.

2 things to say (1st one a blogwhore):

http://steveaudio.blogspot.com/2011/01/do-you-know-what-youre-fighting-for.html

And in the stopped clock is right twice a day category, Charles Johnson at LGF:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/37870_What_Violent_Right_Wing_Rhetoric

Chuckie really nails it, in the same way as Tbogg, with nice visuals.

Hey Erick, how many more people have to die before Conservatives start giving a little more thought to their Political campaign slogans?

The 2nd amendment says you have the right to protect yourself, not silence others. Go ahead and check.

Erik and the right are going to lose this one: when the Sheriff of a city goes out on national TV and points to right-wing radio and Fox News, specifically Glenn Beck, (and you KNOW that’s who he was referring to) as people who have incited this crazy person, the right knows they are in big trouble and are tap-dancing as fast as they can. They’re freaking out because they know what they have done.

Nobody on the left showed up at political rallies with AK-47s slung over their shoulders and posters talking about revolution every few years watered with blood. The right keeps bragging about how the left’s radio shows and MSNBC have tiny audiences and no one listens to them. They’re squishy girly-men anyway who can’t man-up and go get their guns. Nobody on the left talks about ‘taking back’ America as though it’s been stolen…by a man who’s not even a legit President because he’s not even American. The fucking Speaker of the House wouldn’t even tell his caucus’s birthers to knock it off about Obama.

But do I expect the media to finally point out what we all have known for a long time? Oh, hell no. It’s going to be ‘on the one hand this and on the other hand that’ with false equivalencies all over the place. Just hope the public has the balls, like the sheriff, to call them on it this time.

You watch, the Republicans are going to shun Sister Sarah real fast. No more invites for her. They’ll barely know her name. And that will tell you all you need to know.

“May wrongly incite violence against the Right”

As opposed, one assumes, to rightly inciting violence, which this guy clearly believes is fine, and is what makes the difference, not the violence itself.

That actually is the whole point here. People who do things like this are usually pretty crazy, to varying degrees and depending on how you measure it. All you can do is look at who’s advocating armed violence and try to get people to shame that out of existence as beyond the pale.

Good luck with that of course with our “Michael Moore makes movies that criticize things so how’s that different from egging people on to violence?” media.

It’s the only thing that could make a difference though. You’re not going to shame crazy people into not being that way, a campaign against that would get you nowhere.

This tragedy is a tipping point for the insanity of the right, or if it’s not, we’re really and truly screwed.

I braved the comments at foxnews.com. Heaven help me.

It should come as no surprise to learn that it is actually the Left that is shrill, unpatriotic, unreasonable, and whose violence laden rhetoric has caused this. Especially since the Left set Laughner up to discredit the Tea Party. Giffords was “leaning too far right” and had to be eliminated.

Also. And the Second Amendment is the only thing keeping the Left from taking over and destroying the country. They mean to prevent this no matter the cost. Anyone trying to counsel patience and thought is being shouted down.

I need a stiff drink and a long shower. Because trying to talk to angry, scared people is like camping in a railroad tunnel.

Fuck Eric. Fuck Sarah. Sorry, too pissed. That’s all I have.

We now have quite a list of tragedies stretching back to 2008 right after the election of unhinged fans of Rush, O’Reilly, and Beck who have grabbed their guns and started shooting at the targets their heroes specified–from the police to the Tides Foundation to, now, a Democratic Congressperson.

But conservatives don’t believe in cause and effect, so, eh, no biggee.

‘Cause we wouldn’t want folks to go off half cocked and take revenge on a whole group of folks, like targeting any Muslim…I mean teabagger, walking down the street because of the actions of one guy.

Good on you for taking the time to put this together. Protest all they want, but winger bloggers’ looney comment sections are filled with the urge to purge the liberal enemy within which invariably ends with threats about how “We’re the ones who have the guns…”

An older example:
Its only our sense of fair play and decency that keeps them safe… We have the guns and ultimately, if forced, the numbers to destroy these morons completely. There is no doubt on who’s side the military would be and no doubt that the country, in the long haul, would be better off without them.

(Grammar and punctuation retained for authenticity — surprisingly “morons” was not a typo.)

“Mentally ill” may be a convenient excuse, but according to this piece, far from accurate:

http://www.slate.com/id/2280619/

We may not know much about the shooter’s condition, but we can safely assume that everyone who insists that “there are extremists like this on both sides” is certifiably delusional.

not sure if this is widely making the rounds yet but here’s an eyewitness on a local affiliate. he makes the obvious point to the douchebag reporter trying to indict ‘both sides’ that ‘he shot her first’

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH27TpW3NHE&feature=player_embedded

Digby links to a rather enlightening list of examples.

Listen, I’m playing for Team Crazy, too, as you put it. As in, I’m a paranoid schizophrenic. I’m not violent, just like most of us aren’t violent. And most of us are looking forward to another round of having people watch us like hawks, of being fired by worried bosses, of being talked into medication we may not need again, of even our loved ones being instinctively afraid of us again, of demonization. Which, okay, may be paranoid. But on the other hand, these things happen every time one of us goes off in a public way. Maybe you sane people could spare us a little decency if you have a moment.

But while I’m playing for Team Crazy, I’m also a liberal. Way more liberal than most people I know, slightly to the left of Dennis Kucinich, okay? We have political views, just like you normal people. We’re influenced by the media, just like you normal people. And enough violent, cynically paranoid rhetoric out there, and some of us start to fixate on it. Others of us fixate on things closer to home, but some of us do become Glenn Beck fans, or Rush Limbaugh fans, or Alex Jones fans, or whatever. Some of us are politically active, just like we were normal people.

Don’t think we can’t be motivated by violent speech, even if the speaker may think it’s figurative. We don’t live in some isolated, magical crazy bubble world where we can’t hear and see the rest of you.

And while the crazy guy committed a horrific crime–and I’m probably far less likely to assume we crazy people are “not responsible” for our actions than most of you sane people are–the people who carelessly toss this hateful shit into the world are not blameless. And at this point, they can’t even convincingly pretend they don’t know what effect this has on crazy people, because he was hardly the first.

You juggle flares in a fireworks factory, you have to know there’s going to be some damage. And even without us crazy people, there are enough supposedly normal people out there who are perfectly happy to hurt people. “I didn’t know about the crazy guy” is no excuse. They should have at least guessed he existed.

I’m not going after you specifically, but there’s gonna be another round of witchhunts, and I’m pretty tired of it. As an out schizophrenic, I might as well at least let the rest of you know what I know about us.

Digby provides the link: http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/guns-democracy-and-freedom/insurrection-timeline“

Good piece. Worth reading. Thanks for the link.

Thanks for posting. I’m real sick of those who casually label creeps like Beck, Bachmann, Angle, and now this motherfucker, as “crazy,” as if violence and irrational hatred are to be expected from the mentally ill. It’s a way of scapegoating the rottenest tendencies of all human beings into some of the most powerless of our fellows.

But once John Boehner is done with his read-aloud kabuki in Congress, he’s going to get busy writing the amendment that allows you to hunt Democrats from helicopters. So there’s that.

Thank you for that. You are exactly right that we cannot blame this on “the crazy.” The shooter’s mental state may have made him impressionable and unstable, but he got these ideas from somewhere and the list I posted above from Digby clearly points to where. He was actively, if not directly, encouraged to do this by those who should know better and should be held accountable for their words and actions.

Despite his attempts to nuance this attack, Sully actually has a quote that, imo, provides the exactly perfect context for what just happened”

“In that third year of the Kennedy Presidency a kind of fever lay over Dallas County. Mad things happened. Huge billboards screamed “Impeach Earl Warren.” Jewish stores were smeared with crude swastikas. Fanatical young matrons swayed in public to the chant, “Stevenson’s going to die–his heart will stop, stop, stop and he will burn, burn burn!” Radical Right polemics were distributed in public schools; Kennedy’s name was booed in classrooms; junior executives were required to attend radical seminars. Dallas had become the mecca for medicine-show evangelists of the National Indignation Convention, the Christian Crusaders, the Minutemen, the John Birch and Patrick Henry societies . . .

In Dallas a retired major general flew the American flag upside down in front of his house, and when, on Labor Day of 1963, the Stars and Stripes were hoisted right side up outside his own home by County Treasurer Warren G. Harding–named by Democratic parents for a Republican President in an era when all Texas children were taught to respect the Presidency, regardless of party–Harding was accosted by a physician’s son, who remarked bitterly, “That’s the Democrat flag. Why not just run up the hammer and sickle while you’re at it?” – William Manchester, Death of a President.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/quot-2.html

Hey Eric,

Fox and the right wing media, by stating that Obama is a Kenyan, and basically doing everything to discredit goverment that they don’t like, might wrongly incite violence on a congresswoman from arizona.

Bob Schieffer just made a remarkable observation: Considering that the shooter and people like him are deemed crazy (my word), he sure did seem to realize pretty quickly that he needed to stop talking [by invoking his 5th amendment rights]. Isn’t that interesting? Bravo, Bob. Good point.

Thanks for that post. Someone in my immediate family has been diagnosed as schizophrenic, so I can also add my 2 cents worth. I’m not a doctor, and I’m sure there’s a wide spectrum of symptoms associated with the condition, but my experience is similar. My mother is subject to overpowering repetitive thought processes which, if allowed to feed on themselves, can become very destructive and lead to a situation where she does not eat … begins to hear voices … and is compelled to do things which may not any sense to anyone outside, but which have a very simple internal logic. She was able to interact normally with people most of the time, but certain stressful situations would trigger an episode. The first one I’m aware of was when her first husband, who was an abusive alcoholic, beat her.

Currently, her condition is under control with drugs, which isn’t ideal for everyone but works for her.

Anyway, even in her most ‘crazy’ states, it was always possible to talk to her and reason with her. I remember the one time she called me when I was in college and asked me if when you talked to the TV, if they could hear you. Even though she was having delusional beliefs, at least part of her knew it was wrong and was smart enough to ask for help. No matter how ‘sick’ mentally ill people are, they are capable of thoughtand can be helped and/or influenced. This guy was surrounded by a culture of hate and violence, and he soaked up and spit it out in a way which was horrific almost beyond belief.

It’s no wonder the riecht is not condemning this. You can see from their lack of desire to hold the Raygun administration accountable for the havoc the created in Central America that, one reason being, they like the idea of death squads. Mostly because, as with the laws they have no problem passing, because they feel it will not apply to them.(but want all regulations that restrict them ignored)They are, after all, good, mostly Christian folks…

Howard Kurtz dutifully megaphoning false equivalencies and blame the libs shrillery of Debra Saunders and now some guy named Malzberg. The rightwing and their media enablers are in full panic mode.

They should be. They own this.

The state of his mental health in neither relevant to nor exculpatory of the responsibility of the right wing hate merchants. Period.

And how long before the sick bastards put a red dot next to AZ-8 on the “cross-hairs” list?

“Mission Accomplished!”

More Moore Awards, please.

Sadly, so far we have no evidence that Loughner was a tea party activist, and while some on the “left” have assumed, and said, that he was, there have been plenty of liberals who are saying: “Let’s wait and see.”

When you compare that with the right’s willingness to stoop to any lie or exaggeration to further their agenda, we don’t even come close to their level of mendacity.

Oh: the notion that the MSM is putting out that he was involved with the tea party, is idiotic. It’s also a demonstrable lie.

CNN went there yesterday, asking law enforcement spokespeople if they thought Republicans might be in danger now because of this. Good lawd. We have a whole right-wing segment of society advocating the use of violence to redress their fantasy victimization at the hands of the govt, brown people and un-real Americans and we have our media participating in a folie a’ deux, dutifully supporting and reinforcing these fantasies of victimization. It’s really kind of creepy.

This manifest insanity is a demented mirror of the random US madness
perpetrated around the world and particularly upon the 30 million
Afghanis EVERY DAY with our drone explosions upon THEIR children
and THEM and our organized assassins targeting them in surprise
assaults, similarly with NO notice.

Ding. On WMNF this morning the apologists came out of the woodwork to blame this on “the left.” Funny, I don’t remember “the left” calling for the assassination or execution of people who didn’t agree with them.

I’ve lived in Arizona on and off since 1959.

The level of anger, violence, politically endorsed and encouraged bigotry and all around expressed madness is higher than I’ve ever seen it. It has been fostered by the racialists who now are in control of the state – its expression is made easier by a complete absence of gun control, by ‘authority figures’ like Arpaio and Pearce and Brewer who casually move from political disagreement to threats. The fool who tried to assasinate Gaby Giffords is probably insane – the way he carried out his insanity is culturally endorsed by the current Arizona political establishment.

Well, I have to believe that the next time someone in Arizona shows up at a political rally with an assault rifle draped over their shoulder (IF they’re crazy enough to do it…) that some cop is going be standing right behind him with HIS hand on his weapon, ready to draw.

Absolutely. Many of us have been warning that the violent eliminationist rhetoric on the right was going to produce something like this for more than two years. John Amato and Dave Neiwert have published books about the issue. They have been repeatedly warned and knew the potential consequences of their actions.

The fact that the majority of the people here have the desperate need to politicize a tragic event like this is disgusting, but shamefully typical. Even a cursory look at this guy shows him to be a disturbed and unbalanced person. His videos are incoherent. He was refused military service and kicked out of college due to his mental state. When you look at his ‘favorite readings’, they are Mein Camp, and the Communist Manifesto. I’m afraid that his influences are decidedly from the left.

In truth, the violence very rarely comes from the right. You can rant and rave over the Tea Party people all you want, but the facts show that no violence has ever been shown to have taken place at any rally or from any Tea Partier. When Nancy Pelosi paraded through the crowd before the signing of the health care bill, she felt the need to lie about being harassed and spit on from the ‘racists from the right’. I say lie because if this happened there would have been video everywhere, because EVERYONE has a camera…… But nothing but crickets exist.

When one looks at the violence in this country, remember the left wing SEIU beating of a conservative black man at a rally? Then let’s look at Europe, ALL of the violence is from the left, as well as the extreme left in the form of anarchists.

The statements from Palin of ‘targeting’ districts is a metaphor, and most of you know it, but you still insist on reaching to advance an agenda. On the other hand I have heard one of the heros of the left, Francis Fox Piven, call for actual violence. I have also heard Van Jones talk viomently about violent uprising. You also have Anita Dunn describe Mao as one of her greatest political philosophers. In case of memory loss, Mao was a communist, left wing leader, who was responsible for 80+ million deaths. I could go on and on, but I have better things to do.

This tragic event should not be used to advance an agenda, or point fingers at the left or the right. And should not be used to further strip our Constitutional freedoms. Perhaps it could be used to bring us closer and advance talking instead of arguing. I disagree with much of Rep Giffords political stances, including her asking General Petraeus if he was fighting the war in Iraq in an environmentally friendly way? But violence never advances a side, or brings people together. Perhaps reasonable people on both sides can come together. Hopefully, we all want the best for our families, neighbors and country. We may disagree on how to get there, but we want the best. Stop pointing fingers, and use common sense.

“they are Mein Camp, and the Communist Manifesto. I’m afraid that his influences are decidedly from the left.”

You are an ignorant little twit. Illiterate, too.

The Rand Paul Curbstomp

dsidhe, I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, so I’ll go ahead and blame myself for editing it down for brevity late last night when I thought it was a bit too rambling and incoherent. I guess subtracting words doesn’t always lead to clarity. :)

I happen to have a lot of mental illness running throughout my family, including in my own household. I think anyone with more than a handful of people they care about has encountered someone who’s been burdened by mental illness at some point in their life. When I said “team crazy”, I meant actively crazy to the point of doing something like this. Just like there’s potential and kinetic energy, there’s schizophrenia and paranoia that lay dormant until a triggering event or series of events turns the illness into something that harms others.

What I intended to say is that there are many out there who have severe mental disorders, and the over-the-top rhetoric employed by the wingnuts has consequences, regardless of the political leanings of the perpetrator of the crimes. Erickson was trying to call into question whether the right wing has any culpability in this crime with their violent messaging, and my point was that even if it turns out this guy considered himself a far-left moonbat liberal (represent!) it’s the right who’s fostered a political environment where it’s considered okay by the mainstream to use gun sights and words like “RELOAD” in a political context.

My use of “team crazy” was glib, and I apologize for that — but please don’t think I was trying to explain away these actions as simply a result of a mental disorder. Without the underlying mental disorder, I don’t think this kid gets to the point where he opens fire, but I think the violent, eliminationist rhetoric is what really turns this potential energy into an act of terrorism against a politician.

This guy’s weapon was concealed … really the only way to have protected the congresswoman would have been to have a metal detector at the entrance, or patdowns. Obviously difficult to set up at the supermarket that Giffords was visiting to meet constituents. When that happens, we will all be poorer. The culture of violent anti-government hate, which is 99.9999% on the right is making it harder for all citizens to communicate openly with their elected representatives.

And what did Giffords do wrong? She won an election and was doing the job she was elected to do. When does losing justify violence? In a sane society, the losers would either be working on ways to win the next election, or re-evaluating their ideas and figuring out ways to work WITH the legitimately elected officials. Only in America is losing an election an incitement to violence.

Perhaps if you weren’t so ignorant and/or dishonest about the right’s proclivity towards violence, the call to work together in the last paragraph might have worked better.

Schizophrenics and those with other thought disorders are easily motivated by external stimuli. What we’re talking about here is the violent external stimuli provided by the right, eg, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Tucker Carlson, Michael Savage, etc. What we’re calling for here is putting a stop to the violent rhetoric we hear endlessly, and seamlessly, from the right. We have been calling for a stop to it since it began. You don’t hear “liberals” calling for the assassination of people with whom they disagree.

That said, you did produce a nice reichwing apologist rant, though.

The police have a photo of a Person of Interest (POI) taken at the Safeway grocery store, and he is reportedly a white male in his 50s. If such a POI exists as an associate of Jared Loughner, it is an open question whether or not either of them knew in advance who U.S. Representative Giffords and the Arizona Chief Judge were. The others who were killed or wounded by Jared Loughner could have been collateral damage. Reportedly Loughner has mental issues and a history of making death threats, but has not necessarily been diagnosed as mentally ill.

Only time will tell whether Jared Loughner was acting as a “terrorist” or rather as a “vigilante”, and those two terms vary in applicability depending on the point of view of the writer or speaker. What is considered to be a “terrorist” according to the alleged bully power-elite may be a “vigilante” according to the non-elite.

Paranoia is endemic among right wing extremists and not uncommon among main stream Republicans. In paranoia, the content of thought is projective, i.e., paranoics attribute to others their own fantasies, wishes, impulses and desires. Remember the accusatiosn of ‘Death Panels’? And the subsequent establishment of Death Panels by the right wing Arizona governor?

Not far from my personal feelings. The only person so far that I have heard mention Teaparty is her father when asked if she had any enemies. He replied “sure every member of the teaparty”.

Loughner reportedly knew Rep. Giffords because he attended a meeting in 2007, asked her a question, wasn’t pleased with the answer. (Sorry, I don’t know more than that – heard this on a morning talk show.) IMHO, he’s an assassin. That he killed others also makes him a terrorist.

This is not the first time in the last day that I have seen Mein Kampf (usually misspelled, but still) adduced as evidence of being “left wing.” Did this really come from Jonah Goldberg’s appalling book? Look, we have to say this clearly and loudly:

Mein Kampf was written by Adolf Hitler, who was a Nazi dictator, and a RIGHT WING nationalistic politician.

The standard “equivalent” was Joseph Stalin, who was a Communist dictator. Anyone whose library includes both The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf is a politics junkie or a nutcase. Or both. None of the alternatives indicate “leftist” leanings, though for a politics junkie they don’t exactly rule them out, I admit. And, yes, I am “Replying” in agreement, rather than linking however tenuously to that illiterate and uninformed rubbish.

Was it the Tea Party’s rhetoric, other right wing rhetoric or something else that set Jared off? There was more Israeli provocation coming out of Jerusalem yesterday. The Israeli government demolished the Shepherd Hotel located in the middle of a Palestinian neighborhood in East Jerusalem to build housing for its illegal settlers. Representative Giffords was Jewish. Peace

In civilized nation-states, the government typically has a constitutional monopoly on violence at all levels, through the military, organized militia and police.

Every nation-state is a power center, and the power-elite use institutionalized violence openly and covertly to serve their vested interests. Power is abused, and absolute power is abused absolutely. According to the Paradox of Power, those individuals who seek power cannot be trusted, and those individuals who can be trusted do not seek power.

This power dynamic applies to ALL political parties who take turns holding political power, the Right, the Left, the Center, the Progressive, the Reactionary, the Red, the Blue, the Green, et cetera.

It isn’t the left that talks about using ‘second amendment remedies’, either.

Petesh; historical accuracy never gets in the way of pimping the rightwing agenda.

See: “The Civil War wasn’t about slavery; it happened because the tyrannical North was trying to bankrupt the poor southern planters with high tariffs, etc.”

Ad nauseum….

Unfortunately, you don’t seem to know Aryanzona very well.

That was an enlightening article. Thanks.

How does Jared fit into this power dynamic? Peace

They probably didn’t know the judge, who was another random victim (having shown up, like the others, to talk to Giffords).

I’d bet that the person-of-interest will, when found, say that they just gave Loughner a ride to the shopping center. Proof will be left to the investigators (who, I understand, now include the Capitol Police, as well as the FBI).

I know it was concealed. They allow concealed carry in Arizona.

But in the aftermath of yesterday’s horrific events, showing up at a political rally while carrying firearms is going to draw a lot more attention than it has been getting, and THAT was already considerable. Now, the situation of someone walking around at a political meeting with a displayed firearm is not going to be accepted as “normal”. If nothing else, this will help retard the OK-Corral mentality that’s taken root in recent years. And that is a VERY good thing.

If he says he “just gave him a ride” I’d ask him, “If that’s so, what were you doing in the store?”

People who have looked at his reading list have pointed out that what the books have in common is being anti-government. The people who are trying to make it a left/right thing aren’t familiar with the books. (Or are lying, but that’s nothing new for them.)

I would say that if there were enough Arizonans who were willing and able to, three times, elect a democrat, and one who is strongly pro-choice, and who supported Obama’s healthcare “reform”, that there will be a cultural reaction to what happened yesterday, and that it will mean, as I’m saying, that openly carrying firearms into a political rally is going to be perceived a lot differently than it was 48 hours ago.

Your mileage may vary.

People do not live in a vacuum – we are all influenced to one degree or another by what we hear, what we read, and what we see. If we weren’t, there would be no commercials on television.

A vast majority of us can make the distinction between a person using imagery and metaphor, and a person being literal.

Some, potentially like Loughner, cannot. It should not take a tragedy like this for us to realize that just because someone has the right to say whatever they want (short of the incitement test in Brandeburg) does not mean they should exercise that right.

Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and the rest may not have put the gun into his hands. But they didn’t exactly walk on the side of the angels either.

Just as plague spreads from rats, teabaggers waggling their ballistic penis extensions creates the environment in which crazy thrives and takes a particular form.

It is your belief then that Jared was neither Left nor Right? He was a-political and hated all forms of government? Peace

Not all of the relevant facts in the case of Jared Loughner are known yet. Much of the deadline journalism from the establishment news about the shootings is speculative. Instead of calmly, rationally seeking the facts, many people are staking out positions and interpretations that comport with their prejudices.

Isn’t it simply a matter of being willing to use violence to solve problems or not being willing to use violence? Peace

He’ll hijack the thread if we allow him.

Arizona is classified as a “shall issue” state. Concealed carry permits are issued by the Concealed Weapons Permit Unit of the Arizona Department of Public Safety….

On April 16, 2010, governor Jan Brewer signed into law a bill that legalizes the carrying of concealed firearms and other weapons in most places without a permit for adults over 21 years of age. Arizona will still issue concealed carry permits for purposes of reciprocity for carrying concealed weapons in other states and permits will still be required for carrying in certain sensitive areas within Arizona such as in bars or on school grounds. Open carry without a permit will still be legal in most places for 18-20 year-olds, and for emancipated juveniles. This law will take effect July 29, 2010. Arizona is only the third state in modern U.S. history (after Vermont and Alaska) to allow the carrying of concealed weapons without a permit, and it is the first state with a large urban population to do so.[23]

On foot, no permit is required to openly carry a firearm in a belt holster, gun case or scabbard. Generally, a person must be at least 18 years of age to possess or openly carry a firearm….

The law regarding the carrying of firearms in motor vehicles by non-permit holders is complex and has been further muddled by court decisions. However, it is clear that no permit is required to carry a firearm in a vehicle if the firearm is in plain view or locked in a trunk or other place not immediately accessible. “Plain view” means that the firearm would be discernible from the ordinary observation of a person located outside and within the immediate vicinity of the vehicle. After the new Alaska-style carry law goes into effect, these restrictions will apply only to those under the age of 21.

The Arizona legislature has largely preempted political subdivisions (counties, cities) from passing their own firearms laws. Political subdivisions may regulate the carrying of weapons by juveniles or by their own employees or contractors when such employees or contractors are acting within the course and scope of their employment or contract. They may also prohibit the carrying of firearms by non-permit holders in public establishments and events and in parks of less than one square mile in area. Any such place where a political subdivision has prohibited carry by non-permit holders must be clearly posted. Public establishments and events where carry by non-permit holders is prohibited must provide secure storage for weapons on-site, which must be readily accessible upon entry and allow for immediate retrieval upon exit.[25]

Speculation, being prejudiced and jumping to conclusions is the American way. How else could the news be sold to the sheeple? Peace

What exactly does that mean? That the theard may go in a direction that you, personally don’t approve of? Peace

>> take this thread to Cuba !! <<

It’s a problem. There are some people, I guess they’re progressives, for whom any rational looking at the evidence and waiting for more truth, is perceived as somehow defecting to the other side.

That’s what the asshats do. We should do better.

I haven’t heard anyone arguing that the cultural climate in Arizona and the overall conservative agenda, had nothing to do with this atrocity; I think we would all agree that it did. But as far as I know, there has been nothing to tie Loughner to any rightwing organization. He just doesn’t look like a joiner. As Jane has said: “more paranoid than political”.

That could change, and I don’t mind saying that I would be delighted if it turned out that Loughner was connected to some militia group, or something like it, but as of now, we don’t have that, and ragging on people who point it out, is senseless.

Thanks for nailing that down.

No, now you’re oversimplifying it.

Several disparate books are listed by Jared Loughner at his YouTube websites, and to select a few to represent him seems tendentious. Interesting, two of the books are dialogues of Plato: The Republic, and Meno.

They are described in the two following excerpts from wikipedia.com:

Meno (Ancient Greek: Μένων) is a Socratic dialogue written by Plato. Written in the Socratic dialectic style, it attempts to determine the definition of virtue, or arete, meaning in this case virtue in general, rather than particular virtues, such as justice or temperance. The goal is a common definition that applies equally to all particular virtues. Socrates moves the discussion past the philosophical confusion, or aporia, created by Meno’s paradox (aka the learner’s paradox) with the introduction of new Platonic ideas: the theory of knowledge as recollection, anamnesis, and in the final lines a movement towards Platonic idealism.

The Republic (Greek: Πολιτεία, Politeia) is a Socratic dialogue written by Plato sometime around 380 BC concerning the definition of justice and the order and character of the just city and the just man. It is Plato’s best-known work and has proven to be one of the most intellectually and historically influential works of philosophy and political theory. In it, Socrates along with various Athenians and foreigners discuss the meaning of justice and examine whether or not the just man is happier than the unjust man by proposing a city ruled by philosopher-kings. The participants also discuss the theory of forms, the immortality of the soul, and the roles of the philosopher and of poetry in society.

In The Republic by Plato, the “order and character of the just city and the just man” is a dystopia and a schizophrenic. In this dystopia, the state does not serve the interests of the individual, but rather the individual serves the interests of the state. In any civilized society, the individual is conditioned by state oppression and normative laws that split, divide and dehumanize him or her, except for the rare few who are aware and do not identify with this relentless, incessant, spellbinding.

thank you.
besides being a long time TBogg lurker, I’ve been diagnosed/labeled paranoid schizophrenic. I’m both out and active on civil rights issues re: psychiatric disability.
like the rest of humanity, crazy people are capable of violence. but when there’s homicide headlines, my reaction includes: “I hope the perpetrator wasn’t one of us.” violence is expected of us, projected on us, and tends to fuel regressive legislation. so when this kind of incident occurs I don’t just feel stricken for the victims, or the country, or angry about hate speech and violence-promoting rhetoric. I feel (for lack of a better word) paranoid about the social and legal response.
for what it’s worth, researchers at Northwestern University found that people with severe mental illness were victims of violent crime at a rate over eleven times higher than the general population. see
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/62/8/911

This would be a golden opportunity for the more rational legislators in the Arizona legislature to introduce a bill making it unlawful to bring a firearm to a political gathering. That wouldn’t interfere greatly with the “freedom” to carry one in most parts of the the state, and if the bill failed, it would at least identify the politicians who are willing for this powder-keg aspect of Arizona law to continue in place.

Just now, I don’t think that’s something that they would like to have happen.

Emile Durkheim, the father of sociology, wrote: “Every society gets the crime it deserves.” In sociology, the concept of crime is known as “social deviance.” In other words, each society determines what is and is not considered to be an unacceptable deviation from their social norms.

Likewise, every society determines what is and is not considered to be “normal” in the sense of mental health. For example, in civilized societies, cannibalism is not normal and is a crime. In all societies, primitive, savage and civilized, normal is actual normally mentally ill (insane), and truly sane individuals are often considered to be insane. The psychologists and psychiatrists are agents of society, and they contribute to the social conditioning of the individuals in their societies.

With at least two wars going on, one in Afghanistan and the other in Iraq, where Americans are killing anything that moves, what is “normal” for America? Doesn’t anything go? Peace

Let’s not stand about arguing over who killed who, eh? We’ll save that for the day a Republican gets hurt.

Fuck the goddamned, centrist narrative that he was crazy and therefore not a right wing nut bag teabagger. He knew what he was doing, he knew who he was shooting and he tried to get away. His alleged YouTube videos make as much sense as any right wing rant about gold and people who don’t speak English in America.

Authoritarian politicians and the usual gang of yahoos on Fox News have been calling for the assassination of Julian Assange.

Dr. Tiller was assassinated after a long campaign of demonizing by Bill O
Reilly who called him Tiller the Killer.

Some right-wing nut wanted to shoot up the Tides Foundation.

Another nut made repeated death threats to Nancy Pelosi.

A right-wing militia wanted to kill police officers.

Even if Loughner didn’t know he was shooting a Congressional representative’s meet-and-greet and was not at all politically motivated, the prior evidence of politically motivated violence is still pretty damning.

That’s about right…but then they are the moral, responsible adults.

Let me add to your list:

The guy who flew his plane into an IRS building in Austin.

I’m sure there’s many more.

“Journalists urged caution after Ft. Hood, now race to blame Palin after Arizona shootings”

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/journalists-urged-caution-after-ft-hood-now-race-blame-palin-afte

Hell, Tucker Carlson even wanted to fry Michael Vick.

Byron York is a douchebag. Seriously … after an extreme act of terrorism, he’s still nursing a grievance that we didn’t invade Iran in the week after Nidal Hasan went on a crazy shooting rampage? Fuck him.

He posted a video of himself burning an American flag.
He listed Marx’s *Communist Manifesto* as one of his favorite books.
The NYTimes quotes a school acquaintance describing him as “very liberal.”
Typical Tea Partier profile!

Just stop it with this ignorance. Hitler was an extreme right wing politician. He was NOT left wing. Just because Johah Goldberg says something, it doesn’t make it true. And just because the NAZI party label had the word ‘Socialist’ in it does not mean he was a socialist in the same sense that we use the word…either then or now. He hated communism. I realize arguing with someone who could put Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto on the same political side is futile, but I just cannot let it pass. Ignorance of this magnitude drives me nuts.

You are wrong on several facts. The flag burning video was produced by someone else, and he was not in it.

You conveniently omit the other books in his reading list. And just because you read the communist manifesto doesn’t make you a commnunist. That’s just stupid. His reading list indicates crank political junkie … not any particular bent.

Yeah he’s not typical. He’s at least two standard deviations from typical.

“Don Coorough, 58, who sat two desks in front of Mr. Loughner in a poetry class last semester, described him as a “troubled young man” and “emotionally underdeveloped.” After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”

Yeah. Typical liberal.

Well said. Peace

Wow, I need my fallacy bingo card for that one.

Right, he’s a nutball. Precisely.
Identifying him as a Tea Partier or Sarah Palin follower based on the info currently out there is BS.

A liberal can’t be opposed to abortion? Not that Jared was typical in any way. Peace

“May wrongly incite violence against the Right”

Erick himself was inciting violence against the right yesterday morning with a Cartoon Caption Contest on his site.

The cartoon showed a lefty targeting Boehner.

He pulled the post from his site about the time of the shooting with no explanation.

Google cache still has the page at http://tinyurl.com/28jrhmx

The author of the cartoon also moved the offending cartoon at his site but at least gave an explanation at http://www.tobytoons.com/td/20110108/caption-contest-2.html

You need to read the entire NYT piece containing the friend’s comment. Those two words, “quite liberal,” have already been trotted out by reichwing apologists and pundits this morning. To put your “liberal” label in context, here’s the complete portion of the article:

Another former high school classmate said that Mr. Loughner may have met Representative Giffords, who was shot in the head outside the Safeway supermarket, several years ago.

“As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

You need to read the whole article, not just listen to corporate media airheads.

OK, he’s a “nutball.” I’ll accept your diagnosis, doctor, for the sake of argument. That does not mean he is not influenced by the poisonous climate created or at least encouraged by the Tea Party crazies and Palinistas — it means in fact that he is more likely to be influenced by them.

You conveniently omit the other books in his reading list.

If one of the books in his favorites list was written by a Tea Party supporter or a Fox commentator I humbly apologize for suggesting that some of you are injudicious.

It is not about him having a coherent political philosophy, it is about the rightwing, including Palin as well as many others, creating an environment where political threats and violence are not only allowed, but encouraged. His rants are filled with rightwing anti-government rubbish and libertarian inanities (with no discernable leftwing content at all), so he was clearly following the rightwing media. The right owns responsibility for their silence in the face of violent rhetoric from their midst, as well as for routinely employing violent eliminationist rhetoric.

self deleted

We the Living – Ayn Rand.

Apology accepted.

Fuck off, rightard troll.

Dude, Ayn Rand died long before Fox was even a gleam in Rupert’s eye.

You really don’t have a clue, do you?

That has been evident since its first post.

“When one looks at the violence in this country, remember the left wing SEIU beating of a conservative black man at a rally?”

I actually did research instead of letting Glenn Beck tell me what to think:

*The man accused by Kenneth Gladney of beating him is Rev. Elston K McCowan, a BLACK man. So mentioning that Gladney is black and leaving out that McCowan is black is a lie by omission, implying there was a racial motivation.

*There is no evidence that this was a group of SEIU members beating Gladney. The truth is that this was an altercation between two men.

*Gladney was not injured as the video of the event shows Gladney running around while McCowan is down on the ground.

*McCowan had a dislocated shoulder and multiple fractures from this incident.

*McCowan was arrested, by police officers who were personal friends of Gladney who when they arrived on the scene consulted with Gladney, who showed no injuries, then simply arrested McCowan. They did not bother including any witnesses’ statements in their report who told them McCowan had not attacked Gladney.

*The video shows McCowan on the ground and Tea Party folk, including Gladney, trying to kick him while he’s on the ground. Another SEIU man, Perry Molens, has to pull Gladney away to keep him from kicking McCowan as Gladney says, “I’m going to beat the shit out of him.” Meanwhile another SEIU man is standing over McCowan trying to keep others away from kicking McCowan.

*Gladney and his three witnesses, which includes a Montana Tea Party man who wants to impose a Theocracy on the U.S., have already been caught in numerous lies.

A longer explanation of the lies of the Tea Party and Gladney in this railroading of Rev. Elston K McCowan can be found at
http://stlactivisthub.blogspot.com/2010/04/case-against-tea-partykenneth-gladney.html

Some comments suggest that the videos and other information at the main YouTube channel allegedly owned by Jared Loughner are crazy, insane, gibberish, et cetera. Maybe Loughner is speaking deeper that most persons and even beyond most persons.

Example One: There are three points of attack to subvert and destroy a nation-state: society, economy, and polity. Although I have never before seen all three addressed at the same time, Jared Loughner apppears to do so, using simple, syllogistic arguments.

Society: One of the main ways to undermine a society is to debase its language, as illustrated by George Orwell in his book entitled “1984″, and Loughner discusses this.

Economy: One of the main ways to undermine an economy is to debase its money, as illustrated by the shift from commodity-backed money (such as gold certificates) to fiat (decreed) money, and Loughner discusses this.

Polity: One of the main ways to undermine a polity is the debase its locus of decision-making (voters in a democracy), as illustrated by the use of embedded media to hypnotize the people through repetitive, incessant, spellbinding slogans and jingles that push their fear, greed and ignorance buttons in order to control, manipulate and exploit them and oppress them into obedient, productive, self-repressed slaves. And Loughner alludes to this.

Example Number Two: In the flag-burning video at YouTube, the subtitles read (paraphrasing from memory): “Do you seen the bird sitting on my shoulder? … If you see the beautiful bird, then you understand.” He describes the bird in detail. The bird can be interpreted as a well-known, culture-specific metaphor that some people will recognize, and they may realize its connection to truth that is beyond all syllogistic, logical, rational, scientific, theological, philosophical and metaphysical thought and belief. If so, then Jared Loughlin is not insane but rather is other-worldly and his words point to another dimension that has been destroyed by Western Civilization beginning with Plato and Aristotle.

Oh, he/she has a clue. But it’s a clue for an entirely differnt game. Peace

Abraham Lincoln said words to the effect: “Never argue in public with a foolish person, because the audience will not know which one of us is the fool.”

The school mate who said he was liberal knew him in high school.

Her evidence that he was liberal seems to be nothing more than he was a pothead.

We are living in Plato’s Cave … wake up!

Really? If telling Erickson to shove his indignation and suggesting he settle his own house first before telling “the left” how to behave is being a “rightard troll”, then I must have missed the memo.

So you are saying that those two writings are ‘right wing’ documents? Remember, the NAZI’s were National Socialists (left wing), regardless of what is said in the media, and Carl Marx and all his writings are left wing. If you are trying to argue that point, your own ignorance is only surpassed by your blind following of an ideology that history shows always ends badly.

Try to avoid personal attacks, as it only weakens your argument and makes you look angry. Spelling aside, if that’s all you have… you have nothing. Instead of resorting to anger and personal attacks, maybe you could look objectively and realize that there is truth in my statements.

The bottom line of what I had said is that we all have (hopefully), the best interests of the nation and freedom at heart, just different ways to get there, and peaceful discourse in order to find solutions is the answer, not violence.

Bless you, TBogg!

You bet your ass I’m angry. It’s appropriate at times like this. And please quit advertising your ignorance. It’s becoming embarrassing to watch.

You do realize who the people in the US were who were supporting the “National Socialists” were don’t you?

All those dastardly libruls like:
Prescott Bush
Henry Ford
Charles Lindbergh

Libruls all, right?

I don’t let anyone form my opinions. I know what I saw on the video. The only reason I used the term “black man”, was just stating the fact that a black man was beaten. Just because someone mentions race, doesn’t imply racism. Yes, the attacker was black. However, the observation was that the beating came from people with SEIU shirts. SEIU leadership has proclaimed on multiple occasions that they are against the free market, workers of the world unite among a plethora of left leaning/socialist agendas.

The blog that you site as a ‘research source’ is nothing more than a St Louis based ‘progressive’ blog. I don’t see objective facts, backed with video/audio, only speculation, opinion and conjecture. If this wasn’t a left wing/SEIU attack, show me the proof…. not an opinion blog with progressive agendas.

Remember, the NAZI’s were National Socialists (left wing),

Several people have already told you that you are a complete idiot and yet you keep on repeating this nonsense. Get it through your thick head, or alternatively, just go ahead and admit that you are an ignoramus, but stop spouting this dumb-ass lie.

Thanks for your comment and journal reference: “researchers at Northwestern University found that people with severe mental illness were victims of violent crime at a rate over eleven times higher than the general population.”

Another interesting fact would be the number of persons who have been convicted of violent crimes who also are diagnosed as mentally ill as a percentage of all persons convicted of violent crimes. One proxy for that statistic is the number of inmates in institutions for the criminally insane as a percentage of the number of inmates in all correctional institutions (the sane and the insane).

Excerpt from wikipedia:

John Warnock Hinckley, Jr., (born May 29, 1955) attempted to assassinate U.S. President Ronald Reagan in Washington, D.C., on March 30, 1981, as the culmination of an effort to impress actress Jodie Foster. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity and has remained under institutional psychiatric care since then. Public outcry over the verdict led to the Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984.

It doesn’t matter WHO supported them, the fact is that it was a socialist group where the government controlled all manner and facets of the economy. THAT is extreme left wing, and once again the extremes of communism/socialism and fascism has always ended badly, with millions of senseless deaths and lack of freedom.

So you are saying that those two writings are ‘right wing’ documents? Remember, the NAZI’s were National Socialists (left wing), regardless of what is said in the media, and Carl Marx and all his writings are left wing. If you are trying to argue that point, your own ignorance is only surpassed by your blind following of an ideology that history shows always ends badly.

Yes. The Nazi’s were socialists and left wingers and their attempts to pay a courtesy call on Russia has often been misinterpreted as an “invasion”.

Please don’t take this as a personal attack, but you’re really fucking stupid.

Bless your heart.

Nazi Party of Germany

Excerpt from wikipedia:

The National Socialist German Workers’ Party, abbreviated NSDAP, commonly known in English as the Nazi Party (from the German Nazi, abbreviated from the pronunciation of Nationalsozialist), was a political party in Germany between 1919 and 1945. It was known as the German Workers’ Party (DAP) prior to a change of name in 1920.

The party’s last leader, Adolf Hitler, was appointed Chancellor of Germany by president Paul von Hindenburg in 1933. Hitler rapidly established a totalitarian regime known as the Third Reich.

Nazi ideology stressed the failures of laissez-faire capitalism, communism, economic liberalism, and democracy; supported the “racial purity of the German people” and that of other Northwestern Europeans; and claimed itself as the protector of Germany from Jewish influence and corruption. The Nazis persecuted those they perceived as either race enemies or Lebensunwertes Leben, that is “life unworthy of living”. This included Jews, Slavs, Roma, and so-called “Mischlinge” along with Communists, homosexuals, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The persecution reached its climax when the party and the German state which it controlled organized the systematic murder of approximately six million Jews and six million other people from the other targeted groups, in what has become known as the Holocaust. Hitler’s desire to build a German empire through expansionist policies led to the outbreak of World War II in Europe.

My ironclad rule is never talk to anyone dumb enough to believe Golberg’s excreta as it causes brain damage.

“courtesy call on Russia” is excellent

Could have used a reference to the special summer camps for communists, socialists, and labor unionists.

He reminds me of the high school freshman debater who thinks because they’ve read a couple books they knows the entire underpinnings of a ideology. Of course then they run into someone who really does know the ideology, and they get taken apart.

The difference is that the freshman will learn and be better for the experience, rather than think the problem is their audience is full of slack-jawed yokels.

The Right seems to be working overtime wanting to reinvent Loughren from an opinionated libertarian into some crazy lunatic. He’s no crazier than your average poster at Free Republic or Red State. They may be covering their tracks by disavowing his actions or, more comically, trying to make him into a leftie…but their collective inner bigot is quite happy with the results. One less Democrat. They secretly hope others will continue to target and take out more Democrats. Some of them may not like the actual assassination, but if this helps to deliver the message that you run against the Right at personal risk, OK…a few eggs have to get broken to make that omelet; the end result of a One Party State is what they want, so WIN! Except, of course, when they actually start reaping the benefits of their stupidity. Boy, are they going to be surprised when that 2nd Amendment gets jettisoned along with the rest of the Constitution.

On another note, I’m very curious about this ‘person of interest’. What if he turns out to be an influential father figure to Mr. Loughren? Perhaps a teacher or mentor who encouraged his action? It may well be that we’ll find a madrassa like cell of like-minded political-religious fanatics who have created the US equivalent to suicide bombers in impressionable young kids. Not saying this is the case, but I’d certainly want to know who had this guy’s ear over the past couple of years. I suspect we’ve got a lot more to learn about this guy.

The ‘person of interest’ turned out to be the cabbie who dropped the shooter at the supermarket. He had nothing to do with the crime, and he’s already been cleared of any involvement. Apparently, he was in the supermarket visiting the ATM or some such, and that’s why he ended up on the security cameras. It’s still conceivable that the shooter didn’t act alone, but the taxi driver definately was not in on it.

a useful link
Myth: Hitler was a leftist.
Fact: Nearly all of Hitler’s beliefs placed him on the far right.

You are correct and I’d take down that bit of speculation, if I could. I read that after I posted here. Still, I’m concerned with violent prone loners who can be influenced and directed by people who can manipulate their impressionable minds.

Also, too, I see there’s now a possible connection to American Renaissance…can’t wait to hear the RW gasbags spin this into a ‘left wing’ anti-immigration/white supremacy group.

Thanks for the informative link. Nazism may have changed somewhat from pre-Hilter to Hitler to post-Hitler time periods and locations.

One-dimensional political labels are simplistic and generalized. At least two dimensional are needed for clarification, and those two dimensions may vary with the point of discussion. The following links are two examples.

Diagram of Political Spectrum: Left-Right versus Authoritarian
http://www.educationforum.co.uk/sociology_2/politicalspectrum.htm

Diagram of Political and Economic Dimensions
http://www.nssgeography.com/worldissues%20web/Unit%20Intro/political%20spectrum.jpg

Excerpt from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_politics

The left–right political spectrum is a common way of classifying political positions, political ideologies, or political parties along a one-dimensional political spectrum. The perspective of Left vs. Right is a dialectical interpretation of complex questions. Left-wing politics and right-wing politics are often presented as polar opposites, and although a particular individual or party may take a left-wing stance on one matter and a right-wing stance on another, the terms left and right are commonly used as if they described two globally opposed political families. In France, where the terms originated, the Left is called “the party of movement” and the Right “the party of order”.

Traditionally, the Left includes progressives, social liberals, social democrats, socialists, communists and anarchists. The Right includes conservatives, reactionaries, capitalists, monarchists, nationalists and fascists.

The terms left and right are often used to spin a particular point of view rather than as simple descriptors. In modern political rhetoric, those on the Left typically emphasize their support for working people and accuse the Right of supporting the interests of the upper class, whereas those on the Right usually emphasize their support for individualism and accuse the Left of supporting collectivism. As a result, arguments about the way the words should be used often displace arguments about policy by raising emotional prejudice against a preconceived notion of what the terms mean.

There is no moral equivalence between the political rhetoric of the left and the right. As David Neiwert has documented, there is a sub-culture of “Eliminationism” on the American right that demonizes, scapegoats, and explicitly or implicitly calls for violence against political opponents. His web page is worth a look:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/03/eliminationism-in-america-appendix.html

That’s hogwash, Tbogg!

Reading Rand does not make one a ‘bagger, nor is it their required literature. ‘baggers read Palin, not Rand.

Sadly, wrong

Over the past week, an extraordinary wave of “Tea Party” protests has erupted across America. Citizens around the country have expressed outrage at the government’s mishandling of the financial crisis. And one of the most intriguing developments has been a resurgence in interest in Ayn Rand’s classic novel Atlas Shrugged.

Denver’s Tea Party protest opened with a reading from Atlas Shrugged. A sign at the New York City protest read, “Ayn Rand Was Right.” One banner at the Atlanta Tea Party said, “Read Atlas Shrugged Before It Happens.” The Ayn Rand Institute reports that sales of Atlas Shrugged have nearly tripled compared to last year due to Americans’ concerns about the economic crisis.

Google…took me two seconds.

Thanks for playing.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the object of your derision wasn’t merely a clear eyed post partisan, possible far to the left of yourself. – Reserving judgment.

It will be interesting to see if Charlton Heston a/k/a Moses will soon make an appearance in Tucson to speak before a meeting of the National Rifle Association to try to preempt social and legal pressure to change the Arizona laws that do not require gun registration. The shootings by Jared Loughner may be too much even for Heston’s celebrity and eloquence.

At the alleged main YouTube website of Loughner, one video caption reads: “Less that 5% of the people are dreamers.” He also repeatedly mentions “conscience dreaming” (in contrast to “conscious dreaming or lucid dreaming”). Conscience refers to virtue, morality and ethics.

In contrast, John Lennon in his song “Imagine” wrote and sang: “Maybe I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one”, and Lennon is best known for his peaceful activism and emphasis on peace, especially inner peace.

I’ve read Ayn Rand, and sweated through the first chapters of Das Kapital, following which it got easier. Hold of your judgement, is my suggestions.

“thanks for playing” – are you so full of yourself?

I like your trajectory on this, thanks.

Greenspan was an acolyte of A.Rand…. Think about it!

Well, he *did* win the Moore Award. And he *is* somewhat popular.

Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize.

Ayn Rand was an advocate of reason, egoism, and property rights. She is an exemplar of the embodiment of Western Civilization and its lopsided, distorted materialism. Egoism is the idea that one is separate from the whole of existence. Egoism is the root, the social construct of reason (culminating in Aristotlean binary logic) follows, and the intellectual construct of individual property accumulation, lay the foundation for this greed-crazed juggernaut that is fatally out of balance.

Ayn Rand at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

Manfred Max-Neef, an extraordinary humanist economist, has delivered an excellent speech titled From Knowledge to Understanding. The paths, our civilization decided not to take; Francis of Assisi v Machiavelli, and on down the primrose path to shit….

4th down my startup collection: http://mosquitocloud.net/147/

Wow. Okay, I’m gonna have to go along with “Thanks for playing.”

There is no downside to this for the Right.

They get to put on their favorite costume of misunderstood martyr to free speech.

They’ve put the fear into progressives and liberals, especially politicians.

One Dem is out of the picture and a traitor judge is dead.

Win – win – win.

Every “postpartisan” I have ever encountered has suffered from terminal cranioproctology. But, thanks for playing.

Thanks for the diagnosis Dr.Dick. Considering your apparently defensive terminal myopia, I’ll ignore it, mehk?

Thanks for the informative link to the video of the speech by Manfred Max Neef. His series of bifurcations of the road less traveled is tantalizing. With more time to speak, he could have begun with the pre-Socratics, where the first great bifurcation occurred in Western Civilization.

The first bifurcation in his series is Francis Assisi and Nicoli Machiavelli. His mention of Nicoli Machiavelli’s maxim that it is better to be feared than loved is the closest he came to mentioning the full sequence: fear, hatred, anger, conflict, violence, aggression, war.

Oh Jesus. I’m gonna need to post another Shakira video just to get rid of the stench of showing-offism in here now.

Ha, he was an elected official, but he is resigning to take a gig as a radio show talk host on WSB radio in Atlanta, a 3 hour nightly gig for several nights a week. He’s moving his family up I-75 to some midpoint between Atlanta and Macon. Why he doesn’t just move and be closer to his gig on CNN and his radio gig, while still writing those weekly op-eds in our local paper I don’t know.

dsidhe, love your train of thought. Alisa Zinov’yevna Rosenbaum was a mediocre intellect with a pissant philosophy.

He’s going to move into one of the empty storefronts in the Tanger Outlet Mall at Locust Grove? And conduct his radio show from there? Cool. Come mid-June we’ll be able to throw underripe peaches at him. (Locust Grove is one of the few places in the Peach State you can actually pick peaches.)