This weekend I spent an indecent amount of time on teh internets debating arguing with people men regarding their belief that, if only one person had been packing heat at Batman, things would have been so so much better. Forget for a moment that James Holmes was carrying a virtual armory on him, was decked out in full SWAT gear, had the element of surprise, gas canisters, and a well thought out plan of attack upon a darkened theater where the audience had already escaped reality and been lulled into the story. Forget, also, the massive blind panic that immediately followed with people climbing over each other, sprawling on the floor to avoid being hit, the screaming, the bodies, the blood, the smoke, the noise … the sheer horror of being caught up in your worst nightmare.
And yet I am led to understand that one person, who just happened to be carrying a piece would have calmly and with great presence of mind taken out the shooter just like he was Jason Bourne or whoever that guy is that Bruce Willis plays in those shitty Die Hard movies. Better yet, what if there were two or even three Jason Bourne-wannabes returning fire? Awesome! But how exactly would the brave hero in row thirty-two know that the guy in row twelve, who was also busy blasting away in the noise and the chaos, wasn’t James Holmes wingman? Then the guy in row twenty-one sees the guy in thirty-two shooting at the guy in twelve and he has to make the decision which one is the bad guy … or maybe both. Then the police bust in and the whole thing looks like Reservoir Dogs but with more collateral damage.
You get the idea.
The reality is that, when it comes to split second heroics, some people are lucky they didn’t almost screw up like Joe Zamudio who was there when Gabby Giffords was shot:
The new poster boy for this agenda is Joe Zamudio, a hero in the Tucson incident. Zamudio was in a nearby drug store when the shooting began, and he was armed. He ran to the scene and helped subdue the killer. Television interviewers are celebrating his courage, and pro-gun blogs are touting his equipment. “Bystander Says Carrying Gun Prompted Him to Help,” says the headline in the Wall Street Journal.
But before we embrace Zamudio’s brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let’s hear the whole story. “I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready,” he explained on Fox and Friends. “I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this.” Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. “And that’s who I at first thought was the shooter,” Zamudio recalled. “I told him to ‘Drop it, drop it!’ ”
But the man with the gun wasn’t the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. “Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess,” the interviewer pointed out.
Zamudio agreed:
I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter], holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky.
When Zamudio was asked what kind of weapons training he’d had, he answered: “My father raised me around guns … so I’m really comfortable with them. But I’ve never been in the military or had any professional training. I just reacted.”
The Arizona Daily Star, based on its interview with Zamudio, adds two details to the story. First, upon seeing the man with the gun, Zamudio “grabbed his arm and shoved him into a wall” before realizing he wasn’t the shooter. And second, one reason why Zamudio didn’t pull out his own weapon was that “he didn’t want to be confused as a second gunman.”
And some are unlucky like police officer Michael Leach:
An off-duty police officer shot and killed his son after mistaking him for an intruder, New York State Police said.
Michael Leach, 59, an officer with the Parry Police Department in Wyoming County in western New York state, was staying at a motel in Old Forge. He called 911 early Saturday to say he just shot someone he thought was an intruder, troopers said, according to The Syracuse Post-Standard.
The victim turned out to be his son, Matthew S. Leach, 37, of Rochester.
Troopers said that the elder Leach used his department-issued .45-caliber Glock handgun in the shooting. He was hospitalized after the shooting for what for what troopers described as a “medical issue.”
He knew what he was doing and yet … tragedy.
I get the whole ‘middle-aged manly-man internet chest-thumping routine’ that includes, but is not limited to, extensive descriptions of guns owned, a history of hard drinking, cigar smoking, Harley riding, imaginary confrontations with “thugs”, sex talk, and so on. It’s stupid and dumb and kind of sad but like I have said before: virtual manhood is better than no manhood at all, I guess. But when I read shit like this (no link for obvious reasons) written by someone with a well known history of having to take medication for anxiety and panic attacks, I am somehow not comforted:
Put a couple major calibre rounds centre mass and he will not like it, armour or not; put one in the melon, and he will stop.
Yup. I have a streamlight TLR-2s with a disorienting strobe at like 200 lumens and a laser, and I have a Trijicon amber dot site, to go with 45 APC rounds. Provided I’m not hit before I know what’s happening, I guarantee he’d have felt what it’s like to be shot — likely 12-15 times, depending on which firearm I had with me.
Shooter, please…





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You’ll take my penis extender from my cold, dead hands.
Uh, let me think about that phrasing.
The guy had a helmet, vest, groin protection, a gas mask, and he was shooting. To penetrate that, I’d need a face shot or a really good shot to the leg. Or I’d need a 50 caliber rifle, appropriate for elephants. So I’d need either a lucky shot or a really heavy gun that would likely be about four feet long or more and probably equip it for night vision. I’m at the movies, for Pete’s sake. I might need to scope out if anyone is using their cell phone or a recording device of some sort. Being on Citizen Patrol is tireless duty. It would be easier to say “Fuck it” and lob some grenades at Mr Juggernaut Boy, but that might not lead to my chance to meet Sean Hannity or go on a cruise with Gordon Liddy. Instead, my lawyer and I might get yelled at by Lawrence O’Donnell. That’s no way to sell a book about my exploits.
Sorry, but reasoned, factual argument, or counter-examples, are useless in this discussion.
I was a freshman in college (and wearing my ROTC uniform) when JFK was shot. There are more weapons out there, fewer laws and more lax enforcement, than at any time in my life. Some PhD candidate can study the reasons and the history; I don’t own a gun; I only pretend-shot during my six-year reserve enlistment; I’m glad I live in a state, surrounded by other states, with strict gun laws. I sincerely believe we won’t stop the stupidity in my, or my daughter’s, or maybe my [prospective] grandchild’s lifetime.
Hopefully this debate will be settled outside the Republican convention center, where angry right-wingers will be legally entitled to carry all the weaponry they like.
Thanks for being brave enough to venture into the sewer of gun carriers. I read an account in the Atlantic of someone who decided to “carry” all the time as an experiment and it twisted his mind. He became more paranoid about “threats” that didn’t actually exist. Moreover, the training associated with “carrying” was a series of rabid NRA screeds about how the Guvmint was going to take away guns and provided no real safety training.
The NRA is a cynical marketing part of the arms industry. They couldn’t care less how many people are slaughtered each year. If it furthers more assault weapons sales, all the better.
Yeah, but we would have killed the terrorist a whole lot sooner. You want an omelet, you got to break a few eggs.
No, the outside of the Republican convention center is the free-speech zone. No guns allowed.
Inside, you can have as many guns as you like!
Last Friday a friend and I started counting who all we knew had conceal-carry permits. We gave up at 40. What I don’t understand is that most of these folks say they carry-concealed for self defense. It seems like if they carried-open then others would think twice about fucking with them….
TBogg has this perfectly pegged. The paranoia mixed with serious racism on these gun forums is a sight to behold. you should see the Rambo types with all of their tacticool toys coming out of the woodwork since the Aurora shooting.
Pathetic assholes where more guns = bigger dick.
if anyone want to see it in full bloom go check out the firearm-related general discussion on arizonashooting.com . Whackjobs one and all.
No one can make a logical argument for any civilian possessing an assault weapon. There is no sense to it. It should be illegal — it WAS illegal! Why these people need to die in vain, without our country restricting ownership of these insane weapons, defies description.
Unless we can make changes, and big ones now, these victims will have died in vain. The next massacre is only >days, weeks, months< away.
Concealed carry is not the problem I daresay Holmes was concealing a rifle and a shotgun on top of his two pistols. The problem is that people who have mental health issues have access to guns and are able to utilize them against the rest of us.
The last thing we need is some guy who has anxiety issues and panic attacks imagining that some person is following them and shooting them when the person’s big crime is walking in a neighborhood. He’s another walking Zimmerman.
Unless the theater management had a policy against it, it was legal for anyone in that theater to conceal carry. So….where were these mythical effing heroes that changing the gun laws is supposed to produce?
The problem isn’t even assault weapons and the ban was retarded. Why? Because if you were someone interested in breaking the law you could still purchase the products to modify the weapon. So essentially all you were doing was telling reasonable law abiding citizens that they couldn’t have an assault weapon, when reasonable law abiding citizens aren’t the problem.
Do I get why gun enthusiasts like guns? Not really. Do I respect their right to own them if they do so in a responsible manner? Yep. As long as they pose no threat to the public at large I really don’t care what they carry.
Now some moron who has delusions of being John Wayne and is on medication for anxiety that’s an entir other story.
It is really hard to kill another human being for most of us (the ones for whom it isn’t are the ones you want locked up under close supervision 24/7). It is also very hard to respond calmly and appropriately in chaotic and dangerous situations like this. That is why the military and police spend so much time, money, and effort in training their people how to do both of these. Even then it does not always work. People freeze, they panic, or they go berserk and everything goes south.
I have a streamlight TLR-2s with a disorienting strobe at like 200 lumens and a laser, and I have a Trijicon amber dot site, to go with 45 APC rounds.
Christ, just what Colorado needs right now: One more whack job narcissist with tactical commando fantasies about heroically pumping armor-piecing rounds into evildoers, and flying monkeys willing to donate money to feed them. I guess the cockslapping slacked off when the male perimenopause kicked in.
I’m not sure most of them have thought that far ahead. These are the same people who are arguing that shooting a gun in a dark theater full of innocent bystanders is a great idea.
“This weekend I spent an indecent amount of time on teh internets debating arguing with people men regarding their belief that, if only one person had been packing heat at Batman, things would have been so so much better.”
I admire your patience. After protesting the war in Iraq and realizing that I convinced not one person who favored the war that the case for war was bogus TO THIS DAY, I have given up on such appeals to logic, which strikes their thickened heads with the force of a mosquito. I suggest you go windsurfing on Mission Bay the next time you get that urge.
All this speculation is pretty much pointless. We have a Constitutional right to bear arms here in the US, and we will bear them.
In fact, I’m thinking of exercising my civil liberties and and buying another this weekend–as the Supreme Court has frequently affirmed that I have the right to do. If that gnaws at the heart of some paranoid government bureaucrats and media propagandists, then I only feel so much the better about it.
Whenever I hear arguments like that, I am reminded of this All in the Family episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRWqaYdxI_I
This proves that everyone should be allowed to carry “full-auto” assault weapons at all times, just like Jeezuz intended…
Heh, here’s to hoping that when your six year old goes to the movies that it doesn’t bite you in the backside that you feel every person- schizophrenia or otherwise, has a constitutional right to bear arms.
The problem isn’t guns. However, to suggest that their isn’t a problem and we should carry on with allowing anybody to have a gun who is over 18 regardless of their mental health status is ignorant.
“We have a Constitutional right to bear arms here in the US, and we will bear them.”
Are you in a well-regulated militia?
I’m always amused with those folks too. The idea that your .45 is totally going to protect you from having a bomb dropped on your house by the government is always a fun one.
Some people just aren’t grounded in reality I guess. Your gun may indeed be a helpful for personal safety but not for the original intent of the 2nd amendment when it was written. As citizens we are way outgunned.
Exactly.
Just because our idiot SCOTUS has misinterpreted the 2nd Amendment is no reason for more innocents to die. And die they will.
Hey! I’m one of those gun-toting badass guys with two-fisted tales of booze and babes and brawls and other things that start with the letter “b” and even I know that me and my handgun are no match for a guy with an assault rifle and body armor. Guns aren’t the problem, they just make the problem bigger and more deadly… so yeah, actually they are certainly a big chunk of the problem. I don’t think this guy could have stabbed 70 people or beaten 70 people with a baseball bat.
Shit yeah! I’m gonna buy a muthafuckin’ rocket launcher!
The small amount of research on this that I have read indicates that there may be a deterrent effect for open carry–for what I imagine are self-evident reasons. Any deterrence is lost with concealed carry.
Yeah, spite is a great reason to go buy a gun. Stay off my lawn, asshole.
Yep, the biggest part of the problem is this hasn’t become a discussion on mental health.
We’re still shoving it into the corner though and reacting after the fact.
The guy appears to have serious mental health issues and no one seemed to catch on to it until it was too darn late.
Ah, you’ve fallen for the NRA’s corporate-marketing slogan, I see: “An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a subject.” The greatest tool for recruiting frightened white guys whose job prospects aren’t as good as their fathers’ had been, and who want to plug a few black guys because they’re too scared to confront their real enemies by forming unions.
By the way, as for the whole “if you start reining in gun ownership you’ll stop hunting” nonsense: The UK allows rifles and other guns not intended for killing humans, and guess what? It loses less than two hundred people a year to gun violence of any sort, while we lose four times that many just to accidental gun firings and fifty times that many to gun murders. Yet UK residents can still go shoot Bambi’s mom and dad, just like we can here — and without the extreme human carnage we have.
Perhaps not 70 people, however would have it have been better to read a six year old and her mother were bludgeoned to death for going to the movies?
I’d personally feel better if we had people with mental health issues getting the help they need and if we were encouraging families to discuss mental health instead of treating it like its a dirty little secret.
If you haven’t already–or others here–look into the stunningly low amount of “training” that goes into getting a concealed carry permit. In my state it requires attending an 8-hour course, which mostly amounts to covering legal issues related to CC, and firing 25 rounds. One isn’t even required to “train” with the handgun they intend to carry.
Unless one is training at the level of police or military with their weapon–to the point where one reacts without thinking because in such a high stress situation rational thought about shuts down, especially if one has never experienced it before–they have only increased the odds that they will shoot themselves or an innocent neighbor. To think that one can perform in a gunfight after such training would be as delusional as thinking one could drive the Indy 500 after getting a learner’s permit at 16. It is truly that level of disparity.
If these folks are so hell bent on heroism, let them put their bodies between the shooter and the innocent. I can’t remember hearing any of these would-be saviors suggesting that level of heroic self-sacrifice so far. Have you? On the other hand, 9/11 changed the definition of heroic from a self-sacrificial, altruistic act for the good of others to . . . drone bombing wedding guests from an air conditioned room in Nevada. That is the working definition of hero in the US right now, yes? Someone who murders the irrevocably Evil Other with video game-like impunity? Is the word blowback appropriate here?
What we on the left need to do is fund research that will produce a drug that doubles the size of the penis. But to get the drug you have to turn in one gun. You can keep the gun if the drug fails to enlarge the penis to at least the average size.
The mayor of Tampa suggested a gun ban at the convention center but Gov. Rick Scott denied the request.
Thanks for reaffirming my point.
Try not to blow your own foot off. I will remember to send flowers to the funeral of whichever relative kills themselves or is killed by one of your weapons.
Here in colo there is a, not so long ago, lesson to be learned. everyone who wanted to carried firearms of any type available…one could hire private gunman to perform any task………it was living hell……folks could not wait for the feds to send a marshall and circuit judge…….i feel like we are not too wise to think about a return…boys, leave your guns to home, when we take our guns to town, people tend to get shot.
Oh, I know. I have been around guns all my life and own one now (though it lives unloaded, broken down, and with a trigger lock in a closet separate from the ammunition). Talk to combat vets about how people who are highly trained react in combat. Even that is not always enough.
“Your gun may indeed be a helpful for personal safety but not for the original intent of the 2nd amendment when it was written. As citizens we are way outgunned.”
So far as I can tell, no one who imagines that guns are a bulwark against federal tyranny drew a single lesson from Waco.
The immovable object here for many of the concealed carry would-be heroes is 70 years of perpetual war-fueled Fear and the TV propaganda that informs it. It is a psychological/ideological issue whose emotional imperative throws trump against ANY rational argument or empirical evidence that doesn’t support the fear-addled control narrative. It is truly an unshakable article of faith born out of little else but being scared.
FSM bless you, TBogg.
Things will get worse before they get better. Americans need to be clubbed about the face and head to understand reality. I hope Romney wins, to speed the descent and theoretical re-ascendance (like Great Britain!) of this country.
Go, Mitt! What we need in this country is more wealth inequality, more climate change denial, more abortion restrictions (This planet is down to its last 7 billion, people! Freedom!), less taxes on the rich (who I like to point out messed things up in the first place, since they run everything), less gun control (I own guns), more incarcerated MJ users (Freedom!), more gay and immigrant bashing, more sick, starving old people, and, perhaps above all, MORE Mormon JESUS! Everyone knows Jesus wanted the poor to get a grip and pull themselves up by gnawing on their own bootstraps.
It’s been fun to be a part of America’s greatest years. Can’t believe I’m glad I’m as old as I am.
Also, I’m glad the gun nuts are part of a “well regulated militia,” the part of No. 2 they always seem to ignore.
” I’m thinking of exercising my civil liberties and and buying another this weekend”
All these libruls keep saying I’m some kind of dupe who’s easily manipulated by the NRA into spending money my family needs for other things on expensive weapons.
I’ll show those libs how wrong they are – cuz I’m buyin’ another gun!
I have lived through most of that. While it has been 70 years of nearly perpetual war (most of that is post 1980, actually), the real paranoia building really started to some extent with Nixon and then Reagan turned it up to 11.
Right. How many fucking guns do you really need? If you are serious about “home defense”, get a 12-Guage pump or semi-auto (if you must) and load it with #8 (advice from the Chicago PD). Maybe 2-3 different rifles and a shotgun if you hunt. There are some uses for a handgun, but nobody needs more than one (I have a .41-magnum I bought to take with me when I was doing a lot of camping up in the mountains in grizzly and mountain lion country).
Many gun folks imagine that those without guns are sheep (their word).
I think Michael Moore had it right in “Bowling for Columbine” when he asked, how could Canada, which has gobs of guns, have such a lower homicide rate? Moore’s answer: They are not crippled by fear.
I don’t know why you’re so disrespectful of the Jeff Goldstein commenter. Why, he put exactly as much thought and effort into this as he did the Iraq war.
Which is to say she wrote a comment about what she woulda done. Obviously this was from a man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can’t get anyone to notice.
One could even argue it was an argument that has never been made in such detail or with such care.
~ Harry R. Sohl
Holy Shit!
Another denizen of guns-before-butter-land!
In my neck o’ the woods a feller can never have too many guns or too many hungry kids….
There are idiots on the internet. News at 11.
Oh, yeah. What emerged in US culture in the Reagan years after Watergate and “losing” Vietnam was palpable. Coincidentally enough, this was exactly the topic of conversation among my friends and I at the rifle range today: What accounts for the noticeable increase in fear and punishment in US culture over the last 30 years. (As it was a hundred and fuck degrees out without a cloud in the sky, it was too hot for anything but shooting the shit.)
“In my neck o’ the woods a feller can never have too many guns or too many hungry kids….”
Darn tootin’ Damn kids keep gettin’ into the freeze-dried jerky stored down in the cellar that I’m savin’ for when that librul apocalypse comes.
Even Wyatt Earp in the wild west days made them all check their guns in when they came into town.
The NRA is laughing all the way to the bank too. They are a right wing shill group. We had a GOP sheriff who believed private citizens should not be allowed to own personal firearms (and refused to sign off on a concealed carry which meant a trip to a courthouse for DH)running against a Democrat who was perfectly fine with law abiding citizens owning guns. Guess which one the NRA endorsed?
And it’s hard to laugh dragging all those heavy sacks filled with cash. Keeps you so out of breath. Good thing they don’t have to carry water at the same time – that’s what the congress is for.
A lot of gun enthusiasts just like guns. And I’m okay with that as long as you are mentally fit and aren’t breaking laws and are responsible enough to ensure your weapon/s(and let’s face it this isn’t a stamp collection, these are made specifically to wound or kill)don’t end up in the wrong hands.
The truth is this kid could have hurt a lot of people even without guns. He booby trapped his apartment with a bomb. I’m pretty sure that he could have done equal damage with something like that in the theater. He was a smart guy, a sick guy apparently, but quite smart. We’re fooling ourselves if we make this just about guns.
Too bad we don’t have more gun enthusiasts more enthusiastic about their penises. You got the same deal going on, that big barrel thing, the cock and shoot, the projectile landing ooooh,…
Was it this thread somebody said something about a penis enhancement project, kinda like New Deal electricity, a kind of public health project? We just have everybody who wants a concealed carry permit to undergo typical prison-release, sexual-predator testing, and while the interpretation of results would use a different scale, I’m pretty sure high enough correlations would indicate who shouldn’t have a gun.
Obviously, those who don’t score high enough could have a gun. That’s why I could keep my several.
Alternatively, I may choose to maximize my score, and acquire a govt-funded penis enhancement, because I think infrastructure is justifiable.
So you sit around all day fantasizing about large crowds of people being shot at just so you can rescue them?
This is one of the ways you bolster your self-esteem?
Seriously?
Does the fantasy include lots of people telling you how brave you were and tough, and smart?
Duh! Morans!
Just point them to this clip that Digby posted on Saturday of the 1997 North Hollywood shootout. Similarly armor-clad villains held DOZENS of armed COPS at bay for OVER AN HOUR.
How would one or two folks with 9mm peashooters have stopped this guy? Really? REALLY?!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LrlUsaYlKPs
What kinda fantasyland do these “pack heat and we’re all safe” IDIOTS live in? certainly not one in which they live more than 30 seconds if they really found themselves in such a situation…. Doesn’t have anything to do with being a bleeding heart, anti-gun liberal. Just with real expectations of tactical gun fighting scenarios….
Is that you Dr Freud?
Who says they aren’t enthusiastic about their penises? We had 5 children. I guess my husband is a multi-tasker. He likes guns AND his penis.
Oh and he doesn’t need enhancement, I’m completely good with what he’s got and so is he.
Armchair psychology is lots of fun for people who are bored though I guess. Let’s mock what we don’t understand. Geez.
“Seriously?”
Seriously, these are not the types one needs to worry about. The author of this comment is a harmless fool. And he is rational to the extent that he has merely consumed what the tacticool retailers have told him to. A strobe, a laser and an amber dot scope on a handgun?! Did you ever see the episode of the Simpsons were Homer designs his own car? That’s what this consumer stooge has as a firearm. His M.O.L.L.E. tactical vest probably has a cup holder for a Big Gulp.
While his gun is not legit, unfortunately the Walter Mitty fantasy probably is. “Hey kid,” sez I, “Just go get laid–even if you have to pay for it. You’ll feel a whole lot better and won’t need to waste your money on expensive bullshit like a Trijicon amber dot. Do you know how many blowjobs the cost of that “site” would have paid for? And for chrissakes, it’s 45 ACP not APC. You don’t even have a gun, do you?”
The last Hummer H3 rolled off the GM line at Shreveport on May 24, 2010. This left firearms as the only purchases available for enhanced manhood. I blame Obama.
“I have a streamlight TLR-2s with a disorienting strobe at like 200 lumens and a laser, and I have a Trijicon amber dot site, to go with 45 APC rounds.”……..
….I got a Porsche already; a 911 with a quadrophonic Blaupunkt!
Fucking Meat. Just get laid. Or, spank monkey already. Just….go away.
Remember the “gun-toting soccer mom” who was one of those if-everyone-openly-carried-around-a-gun-then-we’d-all-be-safe people? She was shot by her own husband in her own home.
Our local Kroger has always had a plain clothes security but now has a uniformed and armed man in the store. He didn’t seem to understand my thinking that having an individual on hand that was armed didn’t seem like it was any safer than not. Which, btw, I worked at a different Kroger 30 years ago and it was robbed. They had guns, came in, took money, left. No hostage situations, no shooting gallery just a robbery.
I have a streamlight TLR-2s with a disorienting strobe at like 200 lumens and a laser, and I have a Trijicon amber dot site, to go with 45 APC rounds.
“C’mon, honey, let’s go, we’re gonna miss the trailer if you don’t hurry!”
“I’ll be right there, I’m just getting my stuff together.”
“Oh, God, I hate it when you bring all that crap everywhere we go! I can’t even sit down at the symphony or the movies without you wearing all that crap hanging off you! Last time, when we saw ‘Bridesmaids,’ I was so embarrassed. Everyone was looking at us.”
“A man has to protect his family.”
“Yeah, right. You just bring all that crap so that I have to hold the popcorn bucket.”
So, that’s your motivation then – using a deadly weapon as an tool to confront and offend someone who feels differently than you do – not some legitimate need for another gun. Thanks for providing a perfect example of the kind of person Tbogg is talking about here.
Actually JGORDON didn’t say that was their motivation, but rather an added benefit. Besides people do that all the time with deadly weapons, like making their cars obnoxiously noisy and visually loud…it’s not like people only use their cars for legitimate utilitarian purposes.
Thank you, TBogg, for all you have done to address this issue. A nephew of mine who has Aspergers attended a premiere of the movie in question in New Zealand and emailed me his confused enjoyment of the film. While I could, and did, gently try to disabuse him of some of his appreciation for the violence it contained, I had no fear that he could have been exposing himself to actual, real violence, since many of US society’s ‘norms’ about guns have not yet percolated down there – not to say they won’t, but so far so good.
To those who say they are OK with folk of a sound mind owning guns, I say – can we really suggest there are such people in American society today? People of sound mind, I mean. I know I’m not, and you wouldn’t want me, trust me, getting myself armed to the teeth, an old lady with huge emotional ups and downs and a generally negative opinion about what society has become. Trust me, you wouldn’t. Yet I could very easily, if I wanted to.
That should not be.
Congratulations on validating your own beliefs. Sometimes I am able to imagine a situation that proves how much smarter I am than those people. If only those people could see reason. Keep preachin’ TBogg. Maybe next time you can throw in Machete or From Dusk Till Dawn. Ohh, wait, Kill Bill. Rednecks are all about Rhambo in their stupid make believe world, but when a real liberal has masturbatory fantasies they always go for Quentin Tarantino.
Here’s hoping that irresponsible people, presumably such as yourself, never buy a weapon. Those of us who know exactly how dangerous they are are responsible with them.
The point being that I’m going to exercise my rights regardless if others choose to take care of them properly.
Are you a member of the United States Supreme Court Phoenix Woman? And if not, are you saying that they don’t have the legitimate right to interpret the Constitution to mean that individuals have a personal right to possess a firearm, such as they did in District of Columbia v. Heller?
Please let me know how “my” interpretation of the Constitution is off and how yours is so much better Phoenix Woman. I’m really interested in your thinking.
Your imagination works better than mine does.
Ya, know.
Anyone within the Convention Center can carry any weapon they want?
How about sabotaging the A/C units on the building for the Republican Convention? Just to tip the balance towards hasty outcomes. We can then watch all those “regulated militias” in action.
The Founding fathers did not include the Second Amendment in the bill of rights because they wanted Americans to be able to protect themselves from marauding neighbors.
And yes, despite the rhetoric about bombs being dropped on roofs, a well-armed populace does place an important check on the sorts of policies a government believes it will be able to get away with carrying out. There are far reaching implications of being able to carry weapons here in America, and it’s a right that I am very thankful to be able to exercise.
Please note that first clause, which you, the radical rightwing activist justices, and every other conservatard seems to ignore.
it’s a right that I am very thankful to be able to exercise.
How exactly do you exercise your right to carry weapons, igordon? It sounds to me like you think ostentatious display of guns is your method of exercising your right.
It seems very odd. I have absolutely no doubt that my First Amendment Rights are important, but I certainly don’t have some compulsion to stand on a street corner shouting out my opinions – I don’t need to.
You remind me of the folks who seem to think that obnoxious proselytizing in public is an important way of exercising their freedom of religion. I wouldn’t do anything to stop them, but it’s really not necessary for them to do it.
Buy your gun, whatever. But loudly proclaiming that you’re going to flaunt it just because you can seems a bit insecure and juvenile.
Actually, I do believe that he thinks that the ostentatious display of guns is his method of displaying his “manhood”. Definitely a member (so to speak) of the penile extenders club.
I want someone who believes that it’s not guns that are the problem, but bad people, to therefore defend a citizen’s right to own a flame thrower, a bazooka, a surface-to-air missile, and a low-yield (or high yield!) tactical nuclear weapon.
Yes, yes, I know that runs into real money, and only a few of “us” could afford one, but that’s a secondary issue. What’s important is the maintenance of our freedom, and our right to arm ourselves to the teeth, and beyond, as the Founding Fathers intended.
Remember: it’s not bazookas who kill people. It’s people who wield bazookas who kill people.
Most of the citizens of those countries that we use our much-vaunted drone powers on are quite possibly better armed than the average US citizen. A Kalashnikov (or three) in every household is the norm. It still doesn’t stop the ‘collateral damage’ we send from above.
The average gun owner has never been trained to react under pressure, and use their weapon effectively. I did learn in the Army that when the shooting starts, find something to hide behind or under, so as to save your ass, to effectively return fire. Every battle veterans can tell their stories of being scared shitless, and getting past that is the toughest part. Luckily, you live long enough to get there.
I’ve been getting the ‘UN gun grab is coming! Obama and Clinton will disarm America!’ Emails and FaceBleech postings. All my wingnut pals are *convinced* it’s goin’ down, man! As has been noted elsewhere, the guns ain’t going anywhere. We, as a nation, won’t do that. We’re just going to use our fears, and anger, and cowardice, and our indoctrination by the ‘powers that be’ to tolerate these horrific crimes periodically, just to remind us how ‘free’ we really are.
As an Arizonan I am constantly amazed by the numbers and variety of people here who imagine that gun control is something ‘traditionally opposed’ within the state. Evidently they never did learn why Marshall Earp was employed in Tombstone, nor what were the actual cause of events at the corral.
We have a perfect example of the citizen rising up and doing in the bad guy.
Yep, Luby Cafeteria, Freer Texas.
We know just by statistics that at least 1/2 of the diners had guns on their persons.
It’s Texas, everyone carries.
Not one shot after the idiot opened up with his Glock.
Case closed!
I have a streamlight TLR-2s with a disorienting strobe at like 200 lumens and a laser, and I have a Trijicon amber dot site, to go with 45 APC rounds.
Wait, what? 200 lumens? The 60 watt lightbulbs in my closet advertise 825 lumens. You’re seriously going to disorient someone by flashing a 15W lightbulb at him?
Please not the 2008 Supreme Court decision, which states that individuals do in fact have a personal right to bear arms.
What you have there is an interpretation which has been shown to be incorrect. Now that you are aware of that, please have some intellectual honesty and stop saying that.
Why? Because a lot of people here seem to be under the impression that there is something wrong or illegitimate about having a weapon. I certainly view trying to change that perception as a worthwhile activity to engage in.
Whoopsie! The leg shot wouldn’t work, either as he was wearing “tactical leggings”, which sounds like something a sorority girl would modify with scissors for pledge week festivities.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/07/the_aurora_shooting_bulletproof_vests_swat_gear_and_body_armor_refute_the_nra_.html
I did note it in the comment you responded to. That first clause in the amendment is a conditional clause whose grammatical meaning is quite clear. The right to bear arms is directly conditional on the need to maintain and well regulated militia. That the radical rightwing activists on the court decided to ignore that is completely in keeping with Bush v Gore, Citizens United, and other extreme interpretations which ignore centuries of precedent.
I have a saws-all. And a dog with very large teeth and a pretty good bite reflex. What you are trying to say is that the only ‘weapon’ is a handgun. This is nonsense. A handgun is always offensive and is always used as an act of aggression. Even when it is used to defend, it is part of the initial act of aggression. Protection is ensuring ones doors and windows are secure, protection is taking care of the societal evils that lead to aggression, protection is caring for the mentally ill before their breakdown manifests in aggression. There is nothing ‘wrong or illegitimate’ about having a handgun. It’s just stupid, destructive and pointless.
Err, so the reason you are continuing to say that is because you don’t like the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Second Amendment? And has it occurred to you that there are a lot of people who happen to agree with what the Supreme Court said?
Just out of curiosity here, but is it you or the Supreme Court who is the final arbiter on the meaning of the Constitution? I don’t necessarily agree with everything they say or do either, but in the end we all have to live with it.
“I don’t necessarily agree with everything they say or do either, but in the end we all have to live with it.”
But, we don’t all have to buy a handgun.
I think you have struck at the heart of the issue there. Your contention is that there is no reason to have a weapon, outside of aggression and ego. However, I have seriously thought about the issue myself for a while and come to a different conclusion. And I say that as someone who many would consider to be pretty leftist, even radical.
It’s important to consider because I don’t believe that you have the information necessary to logically reach that conclusion with any degree of certainty.
And on a logical level, I find your implicit contention that gun ownership directly leads to gun crime to be offensive and fallacious. Correlation does not equal causation, as Sweden demonstrates very well in this case. There are factors far removed from gun ownership that cause Americans to be a violent and stupid people.
We have the ability to buy one. That is all that is necessary. And it also must be culturally acceptable, as well as legal, for that ability to be exercised. I will do my best to help ensure that.
Brown vs the Board of Education, Griswold vs Connecticut, Roe vs Wade are all Court decisions that are regularly discussed/criticized and their legitimacy are openly questioned.
But, decisions regarding the 2nd Amendment are off-limits?
Is that what you are arguing?
And it also must be culturally acceptable,
Why?
erm, you might mean Norway, here. (NB. Scandinavian countries =/= not all the same.)
Other reasoning, same logic issues, really.
A lot of people acquire that impression from encounters with people like you.
And frankly, I’m all for making it “culturally unacceptable”, like other remnants of the 18th century. Start packing a sense of shame.
Aside from the ages-old debate over what the Second Amendment guarantees, there aren’t a “a lot of people” here who think owning a gun is illegitimate or wrong. The issue is the type of guns that should be available — an assault rifle just by its description should tell even the most indoctrinated NRA talking-point spewer that its primary purpose is to attack human beings — and who they should be available to. Assault rifles available for the cost of gas to get you to the gun “show,” the kits to make them rapid-fire, 3,000 rounds of ammunition available at the click of a mouse button, zero training or licensing or indemnification of the owners of deadly weapons required. Literally, any diagnosed, mentally ill fool can buy a gun — or a hundred of them — and that’s what you take to be a “right.”
I just think you should have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that the conservative justices made law and did not merely interpret it in this case (and many others). Now that is not all that unusual or even necessarily bad (though I think this is bad law), but you wingnuts like to pretend that only liberals do that.
Why yes, that is exactly what he is saying. You can only criticize rulings he dislikes.
I had hoped that he would at least demonstrate the intellectual honesty he demanded of you and answer the question personally. But since I am still conscience enough to type this reply, you can tell I’m not holding my breath in anticipation of that unlikely event.
Oh crap. Sally Ride just passed. She had more nad and just plain human integrity than a bajillion x infinity and beyond of these a-hole crackers who get their testosterone buzz with make-believe shoot-em up.
Flags at half-staff across America tomorrow, I hope.
Crap.
Nice one, creature.
So is that what Godlstein bought with the money he got from Internet begging?
Heh. You’ll notice that he vanished immediately after you asked…
But has been a busy little gun-toting beaver commenting on other FDL posts….
Forget for a moment the insane lapse of logic required to make that scenario work. I just have on question: How the fuck do we know there WASN’T one, two, three or fifteen people packing heat at the Batman movie? And those people were sensible enough to realize that it would be wholly irresponsible amid the chaos, tear gas, etc. to try to play Bruce Willis in that moment?
Jesus. I’m so sick of that stupid excuse. “If one person … ” How do we know they weren’t there? Hello?
And they didn’t fire away…
It is a question of courage. If one’s courage is tied up in a thing, an externality like a gun, which is to say that there is nothing internal. . . well, shit, then it should come as absolutely no surprise that no one needing to rely on a gun actually pulled one out when the shit hit the fan. Again, where are the “heroes” willing to throw their bodies in front of the bullets? When I hear such advice recommended, I will believe that the heroes actually are what they imagine. If you need a gun to be big, you ain’t got nothing inside.
Uh… The reason why the Founding Fathers mentioned “…a well-regulated militia…” was because they feared standing armies. They considered it the duty of the American Citizenry to be part of the militia, and therefore, the nation’s defense against aggression by a citizen-army.
And you’re an idiot if you think for one moment that a “well-armed populace” will place ANY check on a government – especially in this day and age.
Explain to me how your “well-armed populace” will defend itself against predator drones, artillery, and tanks. After sending a few rounds of HE through your “compound”, followed with some Beehive rounds, your “well-armed populace” will resemble something closer to yesterday’s chopped liver. The fact that we have a civilian check over the military, and a citizen’s “check” over the government (i.e. your votes), blows away your seemingly childish dreams of “nullification” of the US Govt.
And even more childish fantasies of “If I was there, I would have kilt that there baddun, yessir” show and even deeper issue: a complete lack of self awareness. Wake up and join the human race sometime, you might like it.
“And you’re an idiot if you think for one moment that a “well-armed populace” will place ANY check on a government – especially in this day and age.”
One word: Waco.
Well, after Loving v. Texas we have the right to suck cock too. Also.
That is all that is necessary. And it also must be culturally acceptable, as well as legal, for that ability to be exercised. I will do my best to help ensure that.
God knows I’m doing my part – Thanks in advance for doing yours!!
~ Harry R. Sohl
And this isn’t the first time that this has happened. I’m beginning to develop a complex.
way too funny – thanks