When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.-R. Kipling – The Young British Soldier
It goes without saying that I thought ol’ Smilin’ Joe Biden kicked that young whippersnapper Paul Ryan’s be-hind from here to Janesville and back Thursday night. A belief that was mirrored by our old buddy John Hinderaker:
Frankly, I expected much more from Ryan, and he let us down. A disengaged viewer would have seen Joe Biden as the much more forceful, much more knowledgeable candidate. Worse, Biden’s victory gives the Democratic media exactly what they were looking for: an opportunity to declare the beginning of the Obama comeback. This was a needless defeat; I could easily come up with more than 100 individuals who do not hold public office but would have done a better job than Ryan did tonight. It was a big disappointment. Let’s just hope that Biden overplayed his hand and TV viewers thought he was a weirdo. And let’s hope that no one votes based on the VP candidate. Advantage, Democrats.
And now, the Total Burn:
FURTHER UPDATE: One more thing–for what it is worth, Sarah Palin did a much better job against Joe Biden in 2008 than Paul Ryan did tonight. Bizarre, but true.
Ouch.
Where I thought Ryan was at his weakest was his rambling answer about what to do with Afghanistan where Ryan came off sounding like he wanted war without end and more American deaths because …. freedom? Respect? It’s not him doing the dying?
The basic idea Ryan was expressing was simple and plausible – as he said at the outset of the lengthy Afghanistan debate segment: “We don’t want to lose the gains we’ve gotten. We want to make sure that the Taliban does not come back in and give al-Qaida a safe haven” – as that country was in the years leading up to the Sept. 11, 2011 attack on the United States.
But it was Biden who probably aligned himself better with American public opinion, asking Ryan crisply at the end of his sparring match with him on the issue: “You’d rather Americans be going in, doing the job instead of the (Afghan) trainees?”
Ryan answered, “No. We are already sending Americans to do the job, but fewer of them. That’s the whole problem.”
Biden shot back: “We’re sending in more Afghans to do the job.”
Charlie Pierce, in an excellent postmortem ‘splains it all to you:
This was humiliating enough, but when they started talking about war and peace, specifically in Afghanistan, Ryan looked like a toddler trying to cross the Hindu Kush.
He stammered. He vanished into his syntax. He gave Biden the chance to ask him if he preferred that American soldiers carry the fighting in the worst parts of the country rather than Afghan troops, a devastating comeback for which Ryan had no answer. He kept rambling about maintaining the country’s “credibility” until, if you closed your eyes, he started to sound like Robert McNamara in 1965. And when Raddatz asked him, deftly, what would be worse, another war in the Middle East or Iran with a nuclear bomb, he leaped in precipitously with the latter, while about 75 percent of the country, including the two other people on stage with him, looked at Ryan as though he’d lost his mind. He did, however, demonstrate a certain talent for pronouncing long foreign words that his briefers had taught him on Tuesday. Also, he explained winter.
The very unladylike Pierce also “cut(s) up what remains” of young master Ryan as he lay wounded on the debate floor, but you really need to go to his place to read the whole thing in all its bleeding glory.
Feel the burn, Paul Ryan. Feel the burn…





34 Comments
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As someone said, Can we just skip to the part where Obama’s halfway through his 2nd term and Paul Ryan’s on Dancing With the Stars?
Also, too…
Republicans sure have a point about Benghazi – what kind of clueless incompetent lets Al Qaida attack Americans on Sept 11? – Bill Maher
Zing!
WHAT? THE? FUCK? does that have to do with the Vice-Presidential debate?
What a dipshit.
To paraphrase another “great” Republican strategist: “You campaign with the VP you picked to have by your side, not the one you’d like to have…” . Also: completely wrong, of course.
Mr. Pierce has a delightful way with words. The last two lines are priceless.
But TBogg, your addition of Kipling to the discussion is the icing on the cake. Thanks.
Obama was too polite, Biden wasn’t polite enough. For a Democrat in these things, it’s like a Goldilocks story with the “just right” choice eliminated, all you’ll ever get is “too hot” or “too cold”.
Best line I have heard on last night’s debate.
My favorite old Uncle told Eddie Munster Haskell to take his lies and bad ideas and get off the g. d. yard.
“…Paul Ryan’s on Dancing With the Stars?”
You mean “Dancing with the Has Been’s, Wannabe’s and Never Were’s”?
If we leave Afganistan who will protect the girls? We have made big mistakes, but we protect the girls. Are we willing to write off the girls of Afganistan to pull out. My son is in the 82nd and has been there and is willing to go back. If you are willing to pull out of Afganistan that means you are willing to write off womens rights in Afganistan. This makes the prochoice movement here look pretty hollow if they are not willing to fight for that right and other womens rights everywhere.
The late, great Donald McGill:
Frankly, I’d rather protect the “girls” here than over there. America was where the feminist revolution began and it will be where it dies unless we take it seriously.
Plus, women are not all that into killing someone for our rights
Biden opened up the lesser of two evil debate. Now it’s personal.
Remember the question MR asked about “humanitarian causes?” Ryan was a deer in headlights on that one.
I believe it has been amply mentioned everywhere that when Rmoney interrupted, it was Presidential, when Biden tried to edge in over Ryan’s endless filibusters, it was Rude.
I’m not hopeful for our country or the world, and I think R/R is way worse than O/B, at least for women.
Typical Republikkkanz response re: Afghanistan AKA Graveyard of Empires- ‘Who are we to stand in the way of history repeating itself?’
I don’t want to sacrifice my children or grandchildren (yet to be born) to American Exceptionalism. I only see one commenter who seems willing. Luckily, their son hasn’t paid the ultimate price for some (Afghan) one else’s freedom.
Right… because it’s a well-known fact that the best way to change a culture you disagree with is through the barrel of your gun.
Talk about mission creep. Are you seriously proposing that your son and his fellow American soldiers must stay in Afghanistan until the messed-up mindset of the mullah’s and their deliberately under-educated and over-moralized minions is somehow magically changed? You do realize, of course, that their very presence is what feeds the increased power of the Taliban and their groupies, so as long as your son is there protecting the girls, the mullahs are enabled to further repress the girls.
Looks to me like you’ve mapped out a nifty full-time job for the US army forever and ever — I just don’t think it’s the job they can or should be doing. The girls’ lives are going to be pretty messed up with or without the US army — but the unmessing can’t hope to start until the army goes home.
They really pay no mind to the idea of winning elections, do they? Much as a dick Paul Ryan is, the guy has won seven terms in the House, and that tells me that he knows something about something – not about policy, but about winning elections. (Of course, the same right-wingers, as well as Villagers, pay the same disrespect to Joe Biden …)
But don’t let me interrupt you, Mr. Hinderaker – please continue to argue that your party should take more advice on winning elections from people who have never won an election.
If you are willing to pull out of Afganistan(sic) that means you are willing to write off womens(sic) rights in Afganistan(sic). This makes the prochoice(sic) movement here look pretty hollow if they are not willing to fight for that right and other womens(sic) rights everywhere.
After 10 years of playing that role and showing Muslims worldwide the value of women as free individuals you don’t think it’s time for the people of Afghanistan to step up and do their part? When is it time for the followers of Islam to do their part?
The pro-choice movement in the United States is fundamentally about making sure American women have safe and accessible reproductive healthcare, not freeing Islamic women from Islamic men.
And if you want to talk about hollow, let’s talk about what history has shown to be the typical forced birther, Rep. Scott DesJarlais.
I can’t help but notice he still has a job. Who are the ‘hollow’ ones again?
I didn’t waste my valuable time watching this “debate,” but in re to Afghanistan:
1. Did Paul Ryan say he was now enlisting to go over to Afghanistan in order to “protect Afghani girls”?? If not, then why not?
2. Did Paul Ryan state that the younger of Mitt RMoney’s sons are going to their local recruiting station TODAY to enlist so that they can go to Afghanistan to “protect Afghani girls”?? If not, then why not?
My heart & thoughts go out to the women of Afghanistan. I happen to have Afghani friends, and I know pretty closely what’s been going on. Of course, the plight of these women is due in *no small measure* to Team USA from the get-go, as it was the USA who provided the weapons & military training to the Taliban in the first place. We created that monster, and now…
That said, unless or until the likes of Congressman Ryan or RichShit RMoney put their lives or the lives of their kids on the line, I’m calling bullshit. the end.
Ryan’s district is
paleolithicrock-ribbed Rethuglican. He don’t know nuttin’ about getting elected in a mainstream area. But I agree we want more of Hindrocket’s advice so Kumbaya.Aw fuck. Let’s sign up for another hundred years in Afghanistan. Same for the rest of the ME. Those people need some serious democracy training.
Let’s just hope that Biden overplayed his hand and TV viewers thought he was a weirdo.
It would be interesting to see Assrocket spend 90 minutes on national TV and then see the reactions of a viewer focus group armed with dial-o-meters that range from “normal guy” to “weirdo.”
Booman summed the debate up for me …
MMcMenus, all I can do is recommend you read, a history book, about Afghanistan. As has been pointed out above, American soldiers have borne the burden for more than a decade and you;ll find very few here or on other blogs who don’t honor that work and sacrifice. But at some point others have to stand up.
Wait, you mean Greg Mortenson’s work there isn’t finished?
Are you perhaps confusing the job that Joe Biden actually has with that of the Queen of England?
We totally need to stay in AfPak, because when we invade Syria and Iran, we’ll have a totally kickass FREEDOM ZONE in Asia Zone 7.
I thought it was great that Biden basically asked Ryan what exactly was he proposing- invading Syria? Ryan’s browfrown went in to overdrive trying to game his way out of that box.
Um…in Janesville, the town where his family owns and operates one of the leading businesses. Started his political career beause family pulled strings with Wisconsin politicians. Sure, he knows something about winning elections when you’re a big fish in a small pond.
Re: Paul Ryan must have some talent if he keeps being elected. That suggestion was funny. So is this.
Voters are fucking stupid. If they weren’t, Paul Ryan would be delivering pizza.
Let me make a recommendation:
Into the Land of Bones: Alexander the Great in Afghanistan by Frank L Holt. It gives you enough background to understand how Bush/Cheney fucked things up.
Hinder Acher’s right. I bet we could come up with a thousand individuals who would do a better job as Vice President than Ryan.
either that or appearing on “MILF Island“
let’s make it 100,000 and call it a day.
Paul Ryan’s district has been badly served by the local media. They’re only now learning about what a jerk he is, which is why Ryan — who has debated all of his past opponents — won’t go near Rob Zerban, who actually has a good shot at beating Ryan.
Kudos to TBogg for zeroing in on where Ryan irrevocably lost most Americans — especially most indie voters: Afghanistan.
seconded, PW
I wasn’t going to comment…but, I do believe in coincidence: just turned to the tv box to TCM, where host Mankiewicz (Frank?) just announced Frederic March in….”Alexander the Great.!” I wonder if it’ll get to the Afghanistan part?
Another suggestion for background on fighting in Afghanistan: The Great Game, by Peter Hopkirk