
A lot of people whom I like and read every day spent Monday afternoon harrumphing over Kathryn Bigelow’s new film Zero Dark Thirty solely based upon a few articles written about the film and (even though they should know better) the caffeinated banalities of Joe Scarborough’s Current Events for Housewives morning show. By the end of the day Bigelow had been turned into “torture apologist” pin-up girl (much to the dismay, no doubt, of Marc Thiessen who wears everyone else’s war wounds like a crown). Lost in the the high dudgeoning and moral grandstanding of most commentary was the admission by many of these commentators that they really hadn’t, you know, actually seen the movie, but they know this guy whose cousin has a friend whose sister dated a gaffer who worked on the movie and yeah, torture and shit is in the movie, so it must suck.
But, oh look, here is someone who has actually seen it:
Kathryn Bigelow’s new film about the decade-long manhunt for Osama bin Laden begins with an unsparing, nauseating and frighteningly realistic look at how the CIA tortured many people and reaped very little intelligence. Never before has a movie grappled with post-9/11 torture the way Zero Dark Thirty does. The torture on display in the film occurs at the intersection of ignorance and brutality, while the vast, vast majority of the intelligence work that actually does lead to bin Laden’s downfall occurs after the torture has ended.
You wouldn’t know this from the avalanche of commentary greeting the film. Bigelow is being presented as a torture apologist, and it’s a bum rap. David Edelstein of New York says her movie borders on the “morally reprehensible” for presenting “a case for the efficacy of torture.” The New York Times’ Frank Bruni suspects that Dick Cheney will give the film two thumbs up. Bruni is probably right, since defenders of torture have been known to latch onto any evidence they suspect will vindicate them as American heroes. But that’s not Zero Dark Thirty.
Remember a few years ago when wingnuts went off the deep end because Hollyweird was going to make a movie about Margaret Thatcher starring liberal (and therefore America-hater) Meryl Streep, which was going to portray Thatcher as a stark raving bonkers bed-headeded bedlamite based upon a few pages of early version of the script that someone came across? And then the movie came out and everyone was all, “Oh. Good show! Lovely”.
Yeah, well some of you guys are soaking in the same end of the pool.
Kudos, by the way to Kevin Drum who updated his post.




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Glenn Greenwald is properly appalled:
Glen got his schtick down.
While Kevin Drum throws his integrity into salvage mode, Glenn Greenwald defends himself by saying at least he repeated accurately the errors of those who hadn’t seen the film. Lamest defense since “I was only following orders”.
You know George Lucas tortured tens of millions with his prequels, so Bigelow is in
goodwealthy company.I can remember when Zero Dark Thirty was Librul Hollywood’s secret plan to throw the election to Obama.
Well, Kevin Drum actually has integrity to salvage.
Greenwald, not so much.
Probably a good idea for anyone to actually see the movie before making melodramatic pronouncements either way about how others were right or wrong about what it portrays, supports, glorifies or doesn’t, and so on, otherwise it’s just sort of a multiplication of errors.
Can I just say that I like the “Greenwald is an idiot” contingent at places like this at least as much as the “Obama is evil” contingent.
why do I come here? to read considered mindful comments? no to read bloody takedowns! is there a goatee on the critters today?
Among all the Bigelow haters, there’s also this dipshit…
Never mind that…
Roy nailed it:
Funny, that; snarkmeister tells truth. Where have I seen such a thing?
Ready for some real wingnut head-exploding?
Jane Fonda will be playing Nancy Reagan in an upcoming movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1327773/
It’s teatard cultural Amageddon — the librul she-Satan portraying the Bride of 900ft Republican Jesus.
So how far is it from La Jolla to Hollywood?
Glenn doesn’t do contritition, so after viewing the film, if he ever does, he’ll merely claim it confirms what he’s been saying all along.
It’s sort of a psychopathy with him– he was called out on several factual errors on Bradley Manning’s confinement at Quantico by the staff of the brig (none of whom he bothered to talk to before typing up the breathless exaggerations of Bradley’s lawyer and supporters who weren’t witness to his confinement conditions), and whined in his defense that he chose to believe what he believed, and retracted nothing.
He is increasingly an embarassment to journalism and sadly, the liberal causes he claims to support– but torpedoes with sloppy journalism.
ALAN RICKMAN IS RONALD REAGAN!
Oh man, this I gotta see.
…if for no other reason than to see Rickman in a greasy pompadour [laughing].
“when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” is, sometimes, the only thing you can say.
From the way people have been talking about this movie, I was starting to think it was a remake of Passion Of The Christ, just replacing Osama Bin Laden with Jesus.
Except that right or wrong isn’t really the point of this critique. The point is people tossing out opinions without adequate information on which to base them. If Greenwald, say (or anyone who endorsed the movie without seeing it, for that matter) turns out to be “right”, it’s purely coincidence–not the result of knowing what they were talking about.
(And for the record, I don’t think Greenwald is an idiot. I do know for incontrovertible fact that he is a lying sack of shit.)
My favorite comment over at Edroso’s place comes from “Mortimer”:
So you’re basically the full 2003-era TNR now, right? I mean it’s cool that you’re out for Muslim blood but you might want to alert the world that you aren’t, in any way, on the left-wing.
Incidentally: Glenn has one, very limited point. The people who made this movie have repeatedly said that the movie is a work of fact. They have used terms like “documentary-style” and “journalistic” to describe it. They have then admitted that, as a matter of fact, it takes many liberties with the truth. One of those distortions is the importance of torture to the capture of Osama bin Laden. Which happens to be exactly the kind of narrative that your new, fellow Muslim-hating friends like to spin. Which happens to be a dangerous kind of lie, in a country that loves to hate Muslims. But whoops! That’s actually engaging the actual argument!
The funny thing is that you imagine yourself to be someone who hates that crowd more than anyone else, and yet half of your posts echo Republicans these days. But, you know, I’m sure you’ll have some lame witticism to spin when Obama invades Iran.
Your tortured comment, revealing little intelligence, is therefore a testament to the movie’s message. Ka-ching!
WTF are you talking about? Where exactly is this “Muslim-hating” you’re so het up about? In TBogg’s blog? Please. Go away before you turn this whole thread into a rehash of the Bolshevik-Trotskyite mutual clusterfuck/circular firing squads of the 1930s. If you want to scream at Republicans, go over to Red State.
As nobody at T “Empire is COOL with a Democratic President” BOGG is honest enough to acknowledge it, I provide the following quote:
“Anyone wishing to claim that I’ve reviewed this film without seeing it would be well-advised to re-read this sentence as many times as is necessary for the clear, simple and obvious point it expresses to click:
I have not seen this film and thus am obviously not purporting to review it; I am, instead, writing about the reaction to the film: the way in which its fabrications about the benefits of torture seem to be no impediment to its being adored and celebrated. It’s not a review of the film. It’s a critique of the viewpoints expressed by reviewers and the filmmakers.
Anyone claiming I’ve reviewed this film is plagued either by severe reading comprehension problems and/or a desire to distort.”
- Glenn Greenwald, writing in the VERY SAME column that constitutes his alleged “film review.”
Would LOVE to know, by the way, what exactly Greenwald has been “lying” about.
Especially compared to you shape-shifters.
So did YOU see the movie or are you only in the meta-meta-critique of the critique business? Jesus fuck, the actual review quoted in this post, by a person who actually saw the fucking movie, said that the torture reaped very little intelligence.
I guess to be in the PURE LEFT club you have to be plainly fucking ignorant of what you are actually referring to and then pretend that you are only responding to “things” people “involved” in the movie have “said” (based on a true story!) rather than judge the actual product and the film’s actual message. What if Glenn — and by extension, you, since you clearly don’t have anything to go by but your gut and a laughable misreading of what almost everyone in here wrote — is, you know, wrong? What if Bigalow showed a brutal torture scene that showed just how brutal and stupid we were and that other intel was more effective? Because then that would actually be the left critique of our torture policy.
And what else will make us Left again, Freddie? How can we, how can I be let back into your knee jerk club of perfect knowledge and dialectical correctness? Because it seems like another blowhole of bullshit.
You don’t recognize how really fucking stupid this sounds from anyone who hasn’t seen the movie?
I have not seen this film and thus am obviously not purporting to review it; I am, instead, writing about the reaction to the film: the way in which its fabrications about the benefits of torture seem to be no impediment to its being adored and celebrated.
What does that even mean? Does the movie show fabricated benefits of torture? Are those being celebrated? How can you assert that without seeing the movie? What if it showed brutal torture that showed what animals we were? Isn’t that something we should talk about?
You and the other commissars can fucking blow me. Torture is evil. Torture also happens.
There’s a great movie called “Day of the Jackal”, it’s based on a work of fiction, but there are certainly historical elements to it. Torture “worked” there too. I still thought the movie was a taut thriller and was engrossing. And I don’t condone torture. It’s not really that hard.
And….Jay B. doesn’t engage the “actual argument” mentioned by deBoer @ 18.
Next.
I’ll try to help Jay B. and the other professionally-clueless with a hint: this conversation has been about THE CONVERSATION. It’s about what the filmmakers have been TALKING ABOUT. What they HAVE SAID. What OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SAID.
People TALK when movies come out, have you ever noticed that? Are we not allowed to talk about that talk?
And….Jay B. doesn’t engage the argument mentioned by picverry @ 21 either.
because he’s fixated on a non-existant conversation…
I responded directly to your stupid fucking Greenwald quote — it’s nonsensical.
And sure, people talk about movies. WHEN THEY SEE THEM. That’s apparently un-left these days, to comment on something you’ve actually engaged. And Freddie doesn’t even come close to an argument. He’s whining about what he thinks are impure thoughts from un-lefties (or, as you prefer “shape-shifters”) because…of something he never quite makes clear. But Obama will invade Iran! Because of this movie or something. Again, who knows what he’s fucking talking about anyway. I lost the thread when he said we hate Muslims for some stupid fucking reason.
But sure, keep on keeping on.
TBogg, have you seen the film?
No, Jay B. It is ACTUALLY POSSIBLE to discuss the discussion around movies. We are doing it now. You are doing it now.
Anyone here seen Anna Karenina yet? Should I buy a ticket — haven’t been to an in theater flick for three years, and am in withdrawal.
Then you are doing it in a totally incoherent way. I can’t make hash of what you or deBoer are trying to say other than you object to TBogg, you think that the movie glorifies torture because a few (but not all) liberal reviewers say it does and THEN you choose to be outraged by your presumption of how people support torture through the (reported) prism of this movie.
Because if you really want to comment on the efficacy of torture, we would probably both agree that it sucks and is detrimental to both intelligence and the rule of law. But instead, because you have your own axe to grind — a similar one to deBoer and Greenwald’s — you decry the “propaganda” of a movie you only know second-or-third-hand in order to try and self-righteously hector a group you find ideologically suspect.
If the movie shows portrays it as a net good, it would make me uncomfortable. If it showed it as gray, I would probably be outraged. But these are judgements I’m willing to reserve until I see the movie, instead of getting all huffy and outraged over it before hand, based on a few stray reviews.
If you put down the spittle cup for a moment you might be able to see that I was criticizing Glenn Greenwald as well. Not likely I realize, so just carry on making an ass of yourself.
Well gee whiz, let’s move on to a conditional argument by good guy Andrew Sullivan that is SURE to take on the main rhetorical thrust of that anti-Obama fanatic Glenn Greenwald…
“I have not seen the movie yet, so I have to rely on descriptions of its plot.”
Stop right there, Andrew, how DARE you discuss “descriptions of its plot.” That’s just wrong! It would be like….like…like discussing Mormons without reading The Book of Mormon all the way through oneself!!! And no one EVER does that without incurring the wrath of all of TBOGG’s loyal readers, who are sticklers for withholding judgment until they have ALL the facts.
All right, let’s continue:
“But if it portrays torture as integral to the killing of Osama bin Laden, it is a lie. If Bigelow is calling torture “harsh tactics” she is complicit in its defense. And lies do have an agenda, whatever Bigelow says. They pretend that the law allows torture, they violate the historical record, and they make war crimes more likely in the future. Yes, it makes for a more thrilling ride if we start with a torture scene in a movie drama. But actual torture, authorized illegally by war criminals, is not fiction and is far too grave a matter to be exploited as a plot device. It is illegal because it is evil and because it provides unreliable and often false leads, not real ones.”
Well, I hope everyone will be extra scrupulous about attacking Andrew Sullivan in this regard JUST as harshly as Glenn Greenwald.
But, but, I thought the movie was going to be released before the election. You know to help Obama, since he got Osama?? no??
“It is with a great act of courage that I criticize the depiction of Torture. My righteous anger at information I don’t have and my conclusions are valid because of the sanctity that comes from hating torture. Any disparagement I hurl is justified by the purity I’ve attained from deploring torture in all its forms real or imagined.”
Get it now picverry?
Oh well that settles it then because obviously there’s no propaganda after elections.
Oh, the “purity” thing again. Mention unicorns and hippies now and so I’ll know I’ve won the argument because all you have is this junior high school schtick.
I’m sorry, I should have added “ponies” to that formula.
zzzzzz
All you have picverry is sanctimony at people who don’t
praybehave in a fashion you approve.Just to clarify so you don’t construe my statement into proof of something or other.
Declaring there is only one proper way to criticize something(torture) and treating anybody who does it differently as if they are actually supporting that thing(torture) is the problem.
Muslim blood? Not really, just that fucker Bin Laden.
I remember when Schindler’s List came out and some idiot teenagers laughed at some of the killings. Should Spielberg NOT have shown the killings? Because some numbnuts thought it was funny?
We tortured people. Any discussion about tracking Bin Laden down should include what we did. Some sick fuckers will see this as validating their ideas.
I might just wait for the movie (It has Zak Efron and Zoe Kardashian in it, right?) before I make a judgment, but that’s just me.
Yeah, I know. Obama sucks when it comes to using films to get his points across. JFK did it better when he and Kirk Douglas got John Frankenheimer to turn Seven Days in May into a movie — his message to “Bombs Away” LeMay and Edwin Walker to STFU or risk being brought up on what would likely have been quite legitimate treason charges. And yes, JFK et al fought the Pentagon every step of the way.
So TBogg is attacking people for judging the movie based on other peoples’ descriptions without having seen the movie themselves, by using other peoples’ description of the movie without seeing it himself. The mind reels at the hypocrisy.
Rickman’s nearly as old as Saint Ronnie was at the start of his first term, so it’ll be the first time in nearly two decades he’s played someone close to his own age, and probably the first time since his thirties he’s played someone older than his physical age.
Now, while Meryl Streep may have restrained herself as Thatcher, I somehow doubt Alan Rickman will grant Reagan the same favor. This is the actor whose over-the-top turn as the Sheriff of Nottingham almost made Kevin Costner’s Robin Hood: Prince of Dweebs watchable.
Owlbear, you are tragically inept at argument:
“Just to clarify so you don’t construe my statement into proof of something or other.”
When clarifying something you might want to actually “make it clearer.”
“Declaring there is only one proper way to criticize something(torture) and treating anybody who does it differently as if they are actually supporting that thing(torture) is the problem.”
Now, I forgot where I declared this. Or implied it. Any of it. Please enlighten me.
This is so stupid I’m not even sure how to take it apart.
Here try this and have someone read it to you slowly:
Some people are making points about a movie they haven’t seen and someone else who has seen the movie says that they are dead wrong.
Mull it around in your head… it’ll come to you, I promise.
Is this the new version of “I know you are but what am I?” going around?
That stopped working after age six, dude. (This was a reply to kidcharles, not you T. Sorry!)
That was Greenwald’s way of saying “I’m not saying she’s a whore … all I’m saying is that she fucks people for money”.
If somebody had used that same rhetorical dodge to justify, say, drones Glenn would have a 10,000 word post with seven updates.
Nah, he’s apparently much more interested in trying to find a way, however childish, to get back at someone who dared impugn one of his personal gods than he is in trying to honestly hear you out.
It’s evidently so stupid that you couldn’t take it apart, TBogg, because you act like what one person who saw the movie thought trumps the other people who also saw the movie thought.
Evidently there is a disagreement amongst people who saw the movie, and it is not just a matter of “some people” who didn’t see the movie vs. the “someone else” — the one and only “someone else” — who has the real lowdown on the situation.
By the way, most of the discussion out there beyond this blog is about other stuff, including statements by the filmmakers about how their movie is not just a movie but a kind of journalism….I can quote them for you but I don’t know why I should do such basic work for you.
“Shape-shifters” Deflecting the criticism of Grenwald toward Sullivan. Demanding answers for Freddie.
I’ll try farce this time:
“I crush an ant everyday to prove how much I hate torture, the fact I haven’t seen you crush an ant is proof you favor torture.”
I’m too pure to understand farce, owlbear, why don’t you answer my earlier question and tell me where I said the stuff you claimed I did?
PW writes: Now, while Meryl Streep may have restrained herself as Thatcher, I somehow doubt Alan Rickman will grant Reagan the same favor
Yeah, I know, and that’s the part I like best. I’m a keen fan of Rickman, and the mere fact that he accepted the role has me going. I mean, really, casting around for Ronald Reagan, Alan Rickman was your choice? Again, this I gotta see.
It’s like Chris Walken as Karl Rove; there’s a certain incongruity, obviously, but I’d give anything to see this, for the same reason.
Have YOU seen the movie?
By Grabthar’s Hammer, Tear Down This Wall…
No. I haven’t seen the movie. I haven’t been talking about the movie. I’ve been talking about the talking about the talking about the movie.
I’ve seen that.
picverry writes: But if it portrays torture as integral to the killing of Osama bin Laden, it is a lie.
It doesn’t. Your argument therefore falls rather swiftly to the ground, and go see the fucking movie before commenting again, please. Fair enough?
Dear GOD! You can have an opinion, about a thing you haven’t seen, based upon what others said, about that thing you haven’t seen?
This is fucking Asimov-quality Hari Seldon criticism in “Foundation” about fake history shit.
The Mule Is Alive and Well.
/AsimovWeeps
that was in Quotation Marks. Andrew Sullivan wrote that.
Learn to read.
Jesus, you are fucking dense.
The point of the post is…. people who haven’t seen the movie are making broad statements about the movie based upon what other people are saying, particularly when they can shoehorn it into their worldview. Do they care about whether it is in the movie or not? Not really, they have a point they want to make and if they are wrong (and according to Spencer Ackerman who has seen the movie, they are) they’re going to pull the old “Oh I was wrong about this … but my point still stands” Jonah Goldberg shit.
It’s very simple… before criticizing the film and the director: go see the fucking film. Until then, shut the fuck up.
Sabotaging the Iranian Hostage Crisis! What a saving!
This really isn’t that complex.
The totally easy response is :
1 – Watch the movie
2 – Form an opinion about it (if you must)
3 – Compare to other’s opinions (again, if you must)
4 – Write that opinion down (again, if you must)
Not a difficult concept, you know, actually watching a movie, and then writing an opinion of it down on paper/pixels.
Ah, but it’s OK if it’s people who are On Your (perceived) Side that are doing that. (You know, the same complaint often made by a lot of those folks about certain people here?)
You can’t pretend the movie didn’t happen, or is in some vacuum, that people don’t know what’s in it, and can’t critique it from any direction.
Neither can Greenwald. Love Glenn, but that doesn’t mean he can’t make mistakes, or be the occasional dumbass.
Because Greenwald Ain’t Immune From Mistakes.
Great guy. Ain’t immune. Just saying.
Apparently I am not as dense as a certain poster who doesn’t know what quotation marks mean.
This is really not that hard. Talk about talk
is not necessarily
talk about “the movie.”
An example would be TBogg’s thread. TBogg would NEVER make the mistake of talking about a movie he hadn’t seen. He would just talk about the talk about that movie. And, well, he’d also accuse everybody talking about the talk of doing the bad thing (which is talking about the movie without seeing it, or listening to the people who had seen it instead of this one guy Spencer Ackerman who will totally set you straight about this movie) and if you point out that he’s full of shit in this regards he will call you “dense” and say you aren’t getting his brilliant point about all the other people and their lamentable inability to restrain themselves from talking about a movie they haven’t seen.
Fuck this shit anyway, I want TBogg to explain how “hippies” are into Husker Du. I like to hear his Humpty Dumpty “when I use a word” definition of the word “hippie.” See my high-larious comment at the end of the Elizabeth Warren thread for more details.
Apparently I am the dense one around here.
I get the part about talk about talk.
But what are you saying about whatever talk you are talking about? And what level of talk are you talking about?
Are you …
1) … talking about the talk by people who haven’t seen the movie?
2) … talking about the talk that implies dishonesty and an endorsement of torture by the director based on talk by people who haven’t seen the movie?
3) … talking about the talk that is critical of the talk that implies dishonesty and an endorsement of torture by the director based on talk by people who haven’t seen the movie?
4) … talking about the talk that is critical of the talk that is critical of the talk that implies dishonesty and an endorsement of torture by the director based on talk by people who haven’t seen the movie?
… and so on and so on …
Unfortunately we don’t do a lot of hand holding here for the slow or Asperger crowd. Sorry. Maybe try one of the really popular progressive blogs. Just look for the words “oligarchy” and “Obomber’.
Alternatively, maybe you could join up with Freddie deBoer at his blog and rename it Just A Couple Of Post-Grad Students Mentally Masturbating Each Other. That should be a big hit.
Wow, TBogg can even make the “I may not be the most popular progressive blog because I’m too smart” argument! You’d think shilling for centrism required some kind of daring.
He’s a classic slightly-above-average-intelligence San Diegan, and that gives me a bit of pity for him.
Probably explains his bizarre freestyle definition of hippies too, come to think of it.
Because most of the hippies I know are totally apolitical. Did you see a hippie once in Ocean Beach who appeared to be politically oriented or something?
As I mentioned above I am dense.
Please explain the hypocrisy.
Tbogg was commenting on Greenwald’s original negative comments (directed toward the Director of the movie); Greenwald’s comments in response to criticism stemming from his reliance upon, what appears to be, an inaccurate depictions of what is portrayed in the movie; and Greenwald’s acknowledgement that he doesn’t know how the movie actually depicts torture and/or the fruits of torture.
You don’t actually need to see the movie to be able to comment on Greenwald’s sloppy commentary.
Oh good lord. Again, from the Greenwald article:
“(Bigelow) is going around praising herself for taking ‘almost a journalistic approach to film’. But when confronted by factual falsehoods she propagates on critical questions, her screenwriting partner resorts to the excuse that “it’s a movie, not a documentary.”
The CONTENT of the movie would not and could not change the basic contradiction exposed in this situation, in which what is hyped as “almost journalistic” turns out to be”a movie, not a documentary.” Kind of a quick surrender.
See? See? See? See? Fuck.
It’s almost as if the word “almost” has no meaning.
Really, how shitty is that English Department you’re attached to and can you get a refund?
I’m sorry,
… but Greenwald admits he doesn’t know the movie’s content.
You have admitted that you don’t know the movie’s content.
Yet, you are asserting that the content of the movie supports whatever point you and Greenwald are trying to make?
And what is your point, are you defending Greenwald or attacking Bigelow? Or are you so muddled in your thinking that you are mushing the two together?
I would like to point out at this time that when Bigelow says that she is taking “almost a journalistic approach to film” is not the same as saying she is making “a documentary.”
So there goes your entire conclusion out the window. Unless of course you can find quote where Bigelow claims to be making a documentary and not just a movie.
Personally, I’m hoping Rickman will have Ronnie drop trou to show that he’s “as anatomically correct as a Ken doll”.
Damn, yous all so unable to accept any valid point from Greenwald (of course, you might have to read a whole post) you’d think he had repeatedly fucked your neo-con boyfriend.
As I read through this thread, I kept thinking about the old joke about the “pretzel hold”. In the joke, an American wrestler is in a match with a Russian wrestler who is known for killing opponents after twisting them into the infamous pretzel hold. Late in the match, the American wrestler is finally caught in the hold and twisted into an unrecognizable mass, with the Russian sitting on top. Just before losing consciousness, the American sees the Russian’s testicles hanging down over him and decides that his last hope of living is to chomp on them with all the energy he has. Suddenly, the audience sees the Russian launched across the ring. The American gets up, stumbles across the ring, and falls on the Russian for the pin and the victory. When the American staggers back to his corner, his coach says, “My God, how did you do that? How in the world did you overcome the pretzel hold?” The wrestler gasps, “You’d be surprised at the adrenaline rush you get, when you bite yourself in the balls!”
“(Bigelow) is going around praising herself for taking ‘almost a journalistic approach to film’. But when confronted by factual falsehoods she propagates on critical questions, her screenwriting partner resorts to the excuse that “it’s a movie, not a documentary.”
Again, this would be a compelling argument for hypocrisy or “quick surrender” as you so floridly put it, were it not for the simple fact that these are not two comments made by a single person, but rather the off the cuff comments of two separate persons associated with the film.
Greenwald does this a lot: he’ll parse the hell out of everything every member of the Obama administration says until he finds a couple statements which do not identically match each other, and from this conclude that “The Obama Administration” is lying or in disarray.
And for the record, greetings from Hollywood, Sonny, where a documentary is a movie; and if you believe that the appellation “documentary” is an imprimatur of verisimilitude, then you haven’t been paying attention.
I would like to point out at this time that when Bigelow says that she is taking “almost a journalistic approach to film” is not the same as saying she is making “a documentary.”
Quite so, Hunt, and I’m reminded that the makers of District 9, a sci-fi film of a couple years back, said the same thing about their film. In their case, they were talking about cinematographic style (lots of simulated surveillance cam shots and hand-held cam work you might expect from videographers in the field, and CNN-style news clip footage).
In Kathryn Bigelow’s case, I think it’s safe to assume that she is referring to the dispassionate police procedural style of filmmaking displayed in The Hurt Locker, her previous collaboration with Zero Dark Thirty writer Mark Boal, which incidentally picked up a half-dozen Oscars.
And as with The Hurt Locker, no one is saying that Zero Dark Thirty is a documentary in the first place. It is, as Hollywood likes to say, a “docudrama based on true events,” I guess, although even that might be stretching.
Again, Mark Boal is an actual journalist who did his time in the Middle East, and took the time to do the meticulous research to insure that what they came up with is a fair approximation of the time and place, and Glenn Greenwald is not fit to carry his fucking pencil box.
I assumed the same thing about Bigelow’s statement, but since I didn’t feel like searching for an interview to get the context, I didn’t go there in my post above.
I also noted the “tag-team lie” constructed by Greenwald (“tag-team lie”: juxtaposing two separate statements, by two separate people to create the impression that a lie has been told). But I didn’t need to bring that up, it would have just confused the issue.
Hee hee, “tag team lie,” nice one.
Bigelow and Boal restate what should have been obvious in an interview here. Excerpt:
“This movie has been and will continue to be put in political boxes,” said Boal. “Before we even wrote it, some people said it was an Obama campaign commercial, which was preposterous. And now it’s pro-torture, which is preposterous.
“We’re trying to present a long, 10-year intelligence hunt, of which the harsh interrogation programme is the most controversial aspect. And it’s just misreading the film to say that it shows torture leading to the information about Bin Laden. If you actually watch the movie, the detainee doesn’t say anything when he’s waterboarded. He gives them some information that’s new to them over the civilised setting of a lunch – and they go back to the research room and all that information is already there.”
Bigelow added: “Do I wish [torture] was not part of that history? Yes. But it was.’